another AUX in French

[sylvainkahane]

I would like to add "se voir" as an AUX:

Les gagnants se voient attribuer un prix.
Ils se le voient attribuer chaque année.

This construction has all the properties of an auxiliary:

• clitic raising
• it is a redistribution like passive: X attribue Y à Z => Z se voit attribuer Y par X.

[bguil]

Ok with your examples but the construction is quite rare in corpora (17 in GSD, 4 of less in other corpora). Hence, I would prefer to keep the actual analysis where French only have a very small set of 3 AUX (être, avoir and *faire).

However, it would be nice to make this decision explicit in the AUX guidelines, saying that @sylvainkahane's examples (and maybe with a few other cases like laisser for instance) have some similarities with other French auxiliaries but we decide to annotate them as verbs.

[kimgerdes]

It's true that we should not include too many auxiliaries, but I still have a slight preference to include se voir. I think it gives a coherent frame to our AUX selection.

• in favor: it's use is just about diathesis, no other semantics involved: être promotes the direct object, se voir promotes the indirect dative object.

• against: it has not clitic climbing.

[sylvainkahane]

@kimgerdes It has clitic climbing. See my first example.

[kimgerdes]

ah, you are right. but is it obligatory?

? il se voit l'attribuer tous les ans.

[kimgerdes]

Même s’il se voit la proposer par son employeur, le salarié est en mesure de refuser la mutuelle d’entreprise dans le cas suivants https://www.adpassurances.fr/articles/ai-je-le-droit-de-refuser-la-mutuelle-sante-dentreprise.html

[sylvainkahane]

# il se voit l'attribuer tous les ans.

it's another meaning: he sees himself attributing it every year

[sylvainkahane]

*Même s’il se voit la proposer par son employeur, le salarié est en mesure de refuser la mutuelle d’entreprise dans le cas suivants

it must be some strange hypercorrection

[perrier54]

I think that the POS AUX should be assigned to verbs that allow clitic climbing without exception. This is the case for avoir, être, and faire. For verbs like entendre, se voir, pouvoir..., clitic climbing is only allowed in certain cases and I think they should keep the POS VERB.

Examples: Il se voit lui attribuer un prix (He sees himself awarding him a prize). Il en a entendu parler (He heard about it). qui ne les purent soutenir (who could not support them)

[sylvainkahane]

avoir, être, and faire are labeled as AUX and VERB. se voir is also an AUX and a VERB, with two very different significations (it is not even possible to say that se voir AUX has a meaning).

The case of entendre is different, because it keeps its lexical meaning in Il en a entendu parler (He heard about it) and does not trigger a redistribution. It is why I would also be reluctant to annotate it as an AUX. And your example with pouvoir is dated.

[perrier54]

In my opinion, se voir has the same meaning in the next two sentences, even if the pronoun se is the subject of attribuer in the first example and the indirect object of attribuer in the second one.

Il se voit lui attribuer un prix (He sees himself awarding him a prize). Il se voit attribuer un prix (He is awarded a prize).

[sylvainkahane]

It is strange to say that they have the same meaning and to translate them completely differently ;)

[perrier54]

The analysis I have proposed for se voir in the previous examples is not the most relevant. I think it is better to consider se as a direct object of voir and the infinitive attribuer as a predicative complement of voir. In fact, the analysis is the same as for the sentence: je le vois travailler (I see him working).

[Julie921]

Can I close this issue ?

[perrier54]

I am not sure we agree on the conclusion of this issue.

[sylvainkahane]

Many bad and confusing examples in this discussion. I insist that "se voir" has all the properties of an AUX in "Zoé s'est vu interdire l'entrée":

1. It has a grammatical function and no semantic contribution: X interdit Y à Z ~ Z se voit interdire Y
2. The clitic climbing is compulsory, which is the property we decided to keep for AUX:

   Zoé se l'est vu interdire.
   #Zoé s'est vu l'interdire. (possible but other meaning)

   @perrier54 in your example "je le vois travailler", "le" is the object of "voir": "je vois Jean travailler". This is not the case in the construction we discuss, where "l'entrée" is the object of "interdire".

[bguil]

Ok with @sylvainkahane for considering se voir as an auxiliary.

As we are discussing French auxiliaries, I don't understand why laisser is not also considered an auxiliary like faire. Compare: il le laisse manger (he lets him eat) with il le fait manger (he makes him eat).

In nearly all examples of http://universal.grew.fr/?custom=63fa6639a19df, faire can be replaced by laisser with the same placement of clitics.

[perrier54]

OK for se voir. For laisser, it is less obvious. In the examples give by @bguil there is no clitic climbing. In French-GSD, there is no occurrence of clitic climbing for laisser. Moreover, the construction (laisser +infinitive) is of the same order as (laisser + adjective) for which it is difficult to consider that laisser is an auxiliary. Example: je le laisse dormir (I let him sleep), je le laisse tranquille (I leaver him in peace)

[sylvainkahane]

laisser has two constructions, one as voir with no clitic climbing:

Je laisse Zoé choisir le dessert
Je laisse Zoé le choisir
Je la laisse le choisir

and another as faire where the clitic climbing is possible but not compulsory:

Je laisse choisir le dessert à Zoé
Je le lui laisse choisir
Je lui laisse le choisir

The second construction is rarer and likely to be absent from our corpora. As the meaning do not change between the two constructions, it would not be a good idea to use both VERB and AUX for the same verb.

[perrier54]

Decision: In French, the criterion for considering a verb as an auxilary is clitic climbing. With this criterion, the only auxiliries in French are: avoir, être, faire, se voir (but only with a certain meaning). Examples: Les gagnants se voient attribuer un prix. (The winners are awarded a prize.) Ils se le voient attribuer chaque année. (They are awarded it every year.)

Correction of treebanks:

• [x] GSD
• [x] Rhapsodie
• [x] Paris Stories