Velocity is backwards

[sense-amr]

Velocity .. its a tool many musicians use to "express" the note in more ways than just ON/OFF... it typically allows a musician to vary the volume of the note .. and most Daw's support the function of allowing a note velocity .. to which the Synth then responds via .. whats commonly refered to as "Velocity Sensitivity" ..

In surge this is functioned by the Slider next to Gain in the AMP EG section .. as pictured below .. it is labeled "Vel"

<---

Typically 100% ie, Vel slider being all the way up referencing in the case of surge 0.00dB .. would mean the user has the Highest amount and thusly MOST velocity sensitivty from a note in a DAW sending velocity information ..

In the case of surge as referenced from the manual we have .. a difference case.. It's backwards..

As mentioned above and also noted (pardon the pun) .. by several users on the Slack .. It is expected that velocity = 100% sensitivity rather than "Neutral" .. at Full Vertical deflection of the Vel slider..

I propose that we have this ammended.. in the interest of very easy and functional use of the Velocity response capabilities that i know Surge .. truly has ..

NB: I have provided some testing Proof that the velocity response is infact backwards to what people would normally expect.. in the following bitwig file .. for your own testing purposes..

sense_surge_VelocityTest.zip

[baconpaul]

Ha but velocity is different. Hold on; I may have a fix to velocity shortly for the VST3.

[baconpaul]

Yeah found a fix.

Why on earth the vst3 api has the note velocity be a float between 0 and 1 is beyond me. But hey!

[baconpaul]

OK @per99 this https://github.com/surge-synthesizer/surge/pull/719 will fix the problem with velocity but not the others. It will take about 15 minutes to go through the CI build and if it builds then I will sweep it. That means we should have a new nightly in about 30-45 minutes which will fix the velocity in vst3 not working problem. I'll let you know when we do.

[per99]

Thanks so much, baconpaul. But I know nothing about programming. I just need a synth that works. And I guess that the VST2 is as good as the VST3 as long as your DAW accepts it? But of course, if there will be a new VST3 version soon, I'll download it.

Thanks also sens-amr for starting this thread. I had almost given up... Thought that Surge wasn't vel sens :)

[baconpaul]

Well the VST3 surge wasn't. Completely ignored velocity basically.

[baconpaul]

@per99 if you grab the nightly from here https://github.com/surge-synthesizer/releases/releases The vst3 velocity will work. But none of the other expressions will so you may be better to stick with vst2 for a bit. But if you get a chance to test would love to know if it fixes it for you

Again grab the nightly not the 1.6.beta 6

[per99]

Another thing: can anybody figure out why my stone age desktop computer with Win XP won't accept this VST2 version? Surge isn't even visible in the plugin list in Cubase - the same version of Cubase that I use in my Win 10 computer.

[sagantech]

Even if it were visible it would not work because this version of Surge uses many Windows system routines that require windows 7 or greater.

[per99]

@sagantech I see... (And maybe this wasn't the right thread/issue...) Thanks anyway :)

[hems]

Why on earth the vst3 api has the note velocity be a float between 0 and 1 is beyond me. But hey!

In an ideal scenario, every value is scaled from 0 to 1 or -1 to 1, it's just how things are going everywhere ( :

I guess a float number from 0 to 1 can have much more resolution than stepped 0 to 127 : D

Also having modulation and values normalized to 0..1 means any time you can multiple anything by a value, like for instance, you want amp to be multiplied by velocity you just code

amp * velocity instead of amp * (velocity / 127).

Also if Audio is represented from -1 to 1 or 0..1 you can use Audio as modulation source ?

kinda like "real modulars" work?

[baconpaul]

Sure I understand that

My comment was more realizing that vst3 hides midi in innumerable ways. And that makes ports from au and vst2 hard!

[baconpaul]

(oh also real eurorack modulars work 0->10 or -5->5 in case you end up building one or coding up a soft version of one!! :) )

[mkruselj]

Surge XT 1.0 is absolutely the perfect time to do this one!

But also - @sense-amr just FYI in the past 2 years I don't recall any user coming at us with "WTF is wrong with this slider", so your premise that it's confusing users doesn't seem to hold water. People just seem to use the Velocity modbutton and that's it - which is fine, too.

Also I want to add that having Vel slider in dB makes all the sense because it IS tied to a gain control of volume. In a way, expressing this as a percentage would be hiding what the control is actually about, which is dynamic range. Which is what we should rename the control into - Dynamics, rather than Vel. Then flip it around and make it go from 0 dB to 48 dB (not -48 dB). Internally it'd behave the same of course.

But that would be the end of this issue. Which, turns out, isn't that big of a deal in the grand scheme of things.

[baconpaul]

yeah i think the reason it is confusing is the slider is 'velocity insensitivity' from 0-1 not 'velocity sensitivity' from 0-1. Easy to flip when we do XT agree!

[sense-amr]

Just to be clear this initial post I made referred directly to the velocity slider next to gain slider responding in an inverted way to that which normal operation of a slider to control velocity would be expected to be used

On Fri, 19 Mar 2021, 00:44 EvilDragon, @.***> wrote:

Surge XT 1.0 is absolutely the perfect time to do this one!

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[baconpaul]

Yup It's still 'backwards' easy to fix and relabel once we get 19 shipped and rejigger the params though

[mkruselj]

Just to be clear this initial post I made referred directly to the velocity slider next to gain slider responding in an inverted way to that which normal operation of a slider to control velocity would be expected to be used

It was perfectly clear all along. 🙂 It just turned out not to be a big deal for apparently everyone, since we didn't have anyone else coming at us with "hey, wtf?!" 🙂

[sense-amr]

but its still wrong

On Fri, Mar 19, 2021 at 1:26 AM EvilDragon @.***> wrote:

Just to be clear this initial post I made referred directly to the velocity slider next to gain slider responding in an inverted way to that which normal operation of a slider to control velocity would be expected to be used

It was perfectly clear all along. 🙂 It just turned out not to be a big deal for apparently everyone, since we didn't have anyone else coming at us with "hey, wtf?!" 🙂

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[mkruselj]

So are many other things in the world yet we live 🙂

[sense-amr]

yes Evildragon.. rampant capitalism is present during a "global pandemic" yet we still live ?:) is not wanting to change the Velocity slider to behave as expected.. an exercise in nurturing human resilience and adaptation ?:)

On Fri, Mar 19, 2021 at 2:08 AM EvilDragon @.***> wrote:

So are many other things in the world yet we live 🙂

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Latest Video: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL91KJT-XwVma-ah4fjILEE61CRqMtXxZc

Latest Album: https://senseaudio.bandcamp.com/album/inside https://senseaudio.bandcamp.com/album/a-slow-but-sure-demise

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[mkruselj]

It's a matter of issue prioritization and it's just not that important in the grand scheme of things (you're really the only one asking for it, we literally had nobody else reporting it or asking about it). It will eventually be done, but constantly repeating it's wrong it's wrong won't make it happen any sooner. If all goes well with Surge XT plans, might happen sometime this summer, but not before.

[sense-amr]

"constantly repeating it's wrong it's wrong" when i literally said that ONCE:)

On Fri, Mar 19, 2021 at 8:55 AM EvilDragon @.***> wrote:

It's a matter of issue prioritization and it's just not that important in the grand scheme of things (you're really the only one asking for it, we literally had nobody else reporting it or asking about it). It will eventually be done, but constantly repeating it's wrong it's wrong won't make it happen any sooner. If all goes well with Surge XT plans, might happen sometime this summer, but not before.

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-- Best..

Sense :: neural networks are formed when we allow ourselves to feel ::

Latest Video: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL91KJT-XwVma-ah4fjILEE61CRqMtXxZc

Latest Album: https://senseaudio.bandcamp.com/album/inside https://senseaudio.bandcamp.com/album/a-slow-but-sure-demise

Sense videos: https://www.youtube.com/user/senseTUBE https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL91KJT-XwVmblQpiVaf36OOVPjYsR44be Sense FPV Videos: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL91KJT-XwVma-ah4fjILEE61CRqMtXxZc

Sense Wordpress: https://senseaudio.wordpress.com/

Sense Music can be found here/

Music Listening / Licensing http://senseaudio.bandcamp.com/ https://open.spotify.com/artist/6688Ksg7oVmURszh8ot3FU http://soundcloud.com/sense http://hearthis.at/sense

Discogs: http://discogs.com/artist/Sense

[baconpaul]

Calm down guys. All on the same team etc.... but you made me laugh @sense-amr

The thing is when you first raised it I knew it was wrong but didn't know how to fix it. Now I know how to fix it but have to stage that fix. That's all. We will and can. Easy enough. Just not in 1.9

[sense-amr]

that was the goal PAUL .. we need that in these trying surge development TIMES :D

On Fri, Mar 19, 2021 at 9:35 AM Paul @.***> wrote:

Calm down guys. All on the same team etc.... but you made me laugh @sense-amr https://github.com/sense-amr

The thing is when you first raised it I knew it was wrong but didn't know how to fix it. Now I know how to fix it but have to stage that fix. That's all. We will and can. Easy enough. Just not in 1.9

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-- Best..

Sense :: neural networks are formed when we allow ourselves to feel ::

Latest Video: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL91KJT-XwVma-ah4fjILEE61CRqMtXxZc

Latest Album: https://senseaudio.bandcamp.com/album/inside https://senseaudio.bandcamp.com/album/a-slow-but-sure-demise

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Sense Wordpress: https://senseaudio.wordpress.com/

Sense Music can be found here/

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Discogs: http://discogs.com/artist/Sense

[erikjms]

[much time passes..]

Since this is still open, here is another single voice in the wilderness:

Yes, the Velocity slider is backwards; please turn it on its head so it works intuitively.

I started reading the manual for Surge last night and when I got to the explanation on how this UI element is set up, I saw the light, such as it was, and understood that the velocity slider was not broken in the version of XT I am using.

It's just backwards.

I have no idea if anyone else wants this changed, but for what it is worth, I only open issues on projects when I have the time and energy to help debug, which is almost never. It is not always obvious how open a project is to drive-by comments on UI design, especially by a non-programmer musician who just wants the knobs to work the way they look like they do. I'm on the issues page looking for information completely unrelated to this one UI element. I was fine with letting it, um, slide--then saw the title here and laughed to see that someone else had noticed this.

[baconpaul]

yeah our current plan is: ship 1.1 in the same vein as all the other 1.xs and then embark on a much bigger overhaul where, indeed, this will change to a more rational direction

it is indeed maddening but i keep chickening out of fixing it. but maybe, since 1.1 will hav ea long life since our overhaul will take a long time, i should just bite the bullet and do it. @mkruselj @VincyZed thoughts? It's really easy for me to add an 'invert' option to a slider and apply to just this slider globally.

[sense-amr]

yeh i said that hmm i dunno how long ago now :D 2 years?

On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 11:57 AM Paul @.***> wrote:

yeah our current plan is: ship 1.1 in the same vein as all the other 1.xs and then embark on a much bigger overhaul where, indeed, this will change to a more rational direction

it is indeed maddening but i keep chickening out of fixing it. but maybe, since 1.1 will hav ea long life since our overhaul will take a long time, i should just bite the bullet and do it. @mkruselj https://github.com/mkruselj @VincyZed https://github.com/VincyZed thoughts? It's really easy for me to add an 'invert' option to a slider and apply to just this slider globally.

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-- Best..

Sense :: neural networks are formed when we allow ourselves to feel ::

Latest Video: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL91KJT-XwVma-ah4fjILEE61CRqMtXxZc

Latest Album: https://senseaudio.bandcamp.com/album/my-world-2

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Sense Wordpress: https://senseaudio.wordpress.com/

Sense Music can be found here/

Music Listening / Licensing http://senseaudio.bandcamp.com/ https://open.spotify.com/artist/6688Ksg7oVmURszh8ot3FU http://soundcloud.com/sense http://hearthis.at/sense

Discogs: http://discogs.com/artist/Sense

[mkruselj]

Yes we know, the history is right here in this thread. 😛

@baconpaul I would save this one for XT2. That's the one in which we break everything and rebuild. This issue is a perfect fit for that situation. I wouldn't want to cram it in 1.1. Adding that invert option doesn't seem like the right way to go to me.

[erikjms]

I read the whole soap opera! Was very entertaining. 🙃

Myself,I can live with this for now since I know what’s up, or down, with the velocity slider. The info is buried in the manual, though, and I dunno how many others read these things. I only do when I get to the point where I like the synth well enough to want to know what the most inscrutable knobs and buttons do.

If I had an audience anywhere, I’d post a big banner on my site/blog(substack that read “Hey! The gain velocity slider in SurgeXT? It works! It’s upside down though, and will be fixed in some foreseeable future or another”. And link to the manual page describing its behavior.

I also imagine that other people care about microtuning. They should, but. 🤷🏻

[baconpaul]

Well we have micro tuning right at least! Chuckle

[sense-amr]

actually i rather prefer it backwards now :D

On Sat, May 7, 2022 at 11:26 AM Paul @.***> wrote:

Well we have micro tuning right at least! Chuckle

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-- Best..

Sense :: neural networks are formed when we allow ourselves to feel ::

Latest Video: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL91KJT-XwVma-ah4fjILEE61CRqMtXxZc

Latest Album: https://senseaudio.bandcamp.com/album/my-world-2

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Sense Wordpress: https://senseaudio.wordpress.com/

Sense Music can be found here/

Music Listening / Licensing http://senseaudio.bandcamp.com/ https://open.spotify.com/artist/6688Ksg7oVmURszh8ot3FU http://soundcloud.com/sense http://hearthis.at/sense

Discogs: http://discogs.com/artist/Sense

[erikjms]

@baconpaul Yes! Yes you do! I took a look at the Odin2 repo to see if it was tunable and saw that you had given some very thorough advice on why .kbd support is necessary for microtuning to work. Thank you thank you thank you for your service.

Now I have another synth to learn. And will stop writing here before cluttering this issue with more OT noise—albeit sympathetically resonant noise.

[sense-amr]

in fact i think ill write all my favourite synth makers and ask why they didnt understand that UPSIDE down is always better :D

On Sat, May 7, 2022 at 11:44 AM Erik JM Schneider @.***> wrote:

@baconpaul https://github.com/baconpaul Yes! Yes you do! I took a look at the Odin2 repo to see if it was tunable and saw that you had given some very thorough advice on why .kbd support is necessary for microtuning to work. Thank you thank you thank you for your service.

Now I have another synth to learn. And will stop writing here before cluttering this issue with more OT noise—albeit sympathetically resonant noise.

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-- Best..

Sense :: neural networks are formed when we allow ourselves to feel ::

Latest Video: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL91KJT-XwVma-ah4fjILEE61CRqMtXxZc

Latest Album: https://senseaudio.bandcamp.com/album/my-world-2

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Sense Wordpress: https://senseaudio.wordpress.com/

Sense Music can be found here/

Music Listening / Licensing http://senseaudio.bandcamp.com/ https://open.spotify.com/artist/6688Ksg7oVmURszh8ot3FU http://soundcloud.com/sense http://hearthis.at/sense

Discogs: http://discogs.com/artist/Sense