Missing prefixes

[johnbent]

These are not currently in the database but other similar prefixes are. @ChrisPerrette and @smith-371 , can you two please try to add the autoparse for these?

[By the way, be careful please about saying autoparse in a comment. As lower-case it is fine, but only use the uppercase version when you are ready for the parser. If you just discuss it, use lowercase because upper-case will trigger the script and it will get confused by random comments.]

As Chris says, Josephs describes this pretty simply on 171 and 172 of Volume 1 of the revised grammar. The only possible hesitation I have is that Palauans also tend to use the 'le' word as a prefix by attaching it to other words. Also, there is the entire discussion happening in #32 which should be included here.

When this one is ready, please also grab and add those example sentences in #32

[johnbent]

By the way, the pos is prefix. It used to be that we used affix for both prefix and suffix but now I split them into individual parts of speech. I think that's easier since many people are unfamiliar with the word affix.

[ChrisPerrette]

Should this be two entries or one? Also, if one, how do you indicate this two-in-one type?

[johnbent]

Yeah, the autoparse thing is not well-documented. Sorry about that. I'm trying to collect the documentation for it here: https://github.com/tekinged/tekinged.com/blob/4ed82a1e667a55d70797079497e98ca959c301db/scripts/add_words.py#L20

But, it's not well-documented . . .

In this case, it should be one entry. And presumably the two forms are just variants of each other. So, if you want to add multiple words in one entry, it would be something like: w blai n. house. --blil n.poss.3s --blik n.poss.1s

For something like this where they are variants, it would be: w le- prefix whatever definition should be. --l- var. le-

So, what that says is: add 'le-' as a prefix with a definition. Then, in the same entry, add 'l-' as a variant of 'le-'.

[ChrisPerrette]

Is this fine?

w le- prefix he, she, it. --l- var. le- e Ng diak lesensei. --He is not a teacher. e Ng soak el melim a kohi a letutau. --I like to drink coffee in the morning. e Ng diak lsebechek el menguiu. --I cannot read. e A Rechibelau a diak lsorir a kelekolt. --Palauans do not like cold weather.

[Gnalu]

Ng diak el sensei. Ng soak el melim a kohi al tutau. Ng soak el menga chelilt el blauang al tutau. Ng soak el mengang a kiande se el kuilil. Ng diak el sebechek el menguiu. A rechiBelau a diak el sorir a kelekolt.

You all see the difference...

On Wed, Oct 19, 2022 at 3:14 PM ChrisPerrette @.***> wrote:

Is this fine?

w le- prefix he, she, it. --l- var. le- e Ng diak lesensei. --He is not a teacher. e Ng soak el melim a kohi a letutau. --I like to drink coffee in the morning. e Ng diak lsebechek el menguiu. --I cannot read. e A Rechibelau a diak lsorir a kelekolt. --Palauans do not like cold weather.

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[ChrisPerrette]

It should be diak l(e)-, not diak el. Diak, when negating, is always followed by a hypothetical prefix pronoun (unless a word like di or other qualifier intervenes).

[Gnalu]

There’s no Le only el. People just get lazy and do not enunciate.

On Wed, Oct 19, 2022 at 3:29 PM ChrisPerrette @.***> wrote:

It should be diak l(e)-, not diak el. Diak, when negating a verb, is always followed by a hypothetical prefix pronoun (unless a word like di or other qualifier intervenes).

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[johnbent]

Thank you so much for doing this one @ChrisPerrette . I think this one is really hard and I don't know how to do it so that's why I'm so happy you're making the attempt. I think what you did is awesome and almost perfect. I love the examples. By the way, it would be great to add examples like these to the other prefixes and suffixes at some point. Let me know if/when you want to volunteer for that, and we'll figure out some way to make it happen. The standard autoparse might just work; we'd have to try.

The only reason why what you did might not be perfect is that I don't think this one belongs: Ng soak el melim a kohi a letutau.

That le- prefix is different I think. Oh, I don't know. Do you think maybe it means something like '(when) it is morning'? Then maybe the le- means it? @smith-371 , thoughts?

Oh, also, the l- prefix can be 3rd person plural so you'll need to modify the definition a bit. A rengalk a diak loruul a subelir. --The children aren't doing their homework.

Finally, it'd be good to have the hypothetical form following the 'se' pronoun: Se el lousekool, ng blechoel tuobed a cheril. --When she plays, she always laughs.

It'd be good to have @smith-371 approve the example sentences especially; I think he's the best at spelling and grammar.

[johnbent]

Hey sis, there does actually appear to be 'le' as a separate word: https://tekinged.com/?lookup=le&direction=pe

Then what happens is you crazy Palauans are too lazy to hit the space bar and it keeps getting smushed into the next word!

[johnbent]

The awkward truth is that all of these things are ultimately the decision of a proper decision-making authority. The reason that other languages are so consistent is that they have precise rules that are taught and enforced throughout schools. I don't think that Palauan is yet so formal. So, here we have a question of whether 'le' in this context should remain a separate word or whether it should be allowed to merge with the following word. No-one has made that formal declaration. It should be the responsibility of the Palauan Language Commission but when I tried to work with them previously ---- hmm, this is a public forum. Let me just say that I was unable to enlist their aid in helping with this effort.

[smith-371]

That le- prefix is different I think. Oh, I don't know. Do you think maybe it means something like '(when) it is morning'? Then maybe the le- means it? @smith-371 , thoughts?

not different, here A before LE= is different, this A acts as a conj. IF or WHEN, in this case hypothetical is obligatory, e.g. A lebo lemerek a urerel... When he finishes his work...

[Gnalu]

Suman Suman,

Born and raised in 70s learned old Belauan way to separation of ‘ra’ to er a ‘ma’ to me a…my brain is stuck on old Belauan way…anyhoots, Sulang.

On Wed, Oct 19, 2022 at 3:57 PM John Bent @.***> wrote:

The awkward truth is that all of these things are ultimately the decision of a proper decision-making authority. The reason that other languages are so consistent is that we have precise rules that are taught and enforced throughout schools. I don't think that Palauan is yet so formal. So, there is a question of whether 'le' in this context should remain a separate word or whether it should be allowed to merge with the following word. No-one has made that formal declaration. It should be the responsibility of the Palauan Language Commission but when I tried to work with them previously, ...., hmm, this is a public forum. Let me just say that I was unable to enlist their aid in helping with this effort.

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[johnbent]

Ng soak el melim a kohi a letutau. So the literal translation is I like to drink coffee when it is morning.

[ChrisPerrette]

Thank you for mentioning the 3rd person plural aspect I had forgotten.

Yes, there are so many uses of that prefix, that plenty of example sentences should be used.

[ChrisPerrette]

So something I have noticed. LE- and L- are good to add, but there are also other prefixes we are missing. We should have individual or combined entries for all these:

NGAK ku-, k-

KAU chomo-, chomu-, chome-, mo-, mu-, m-

NGII/TIR lo-, lu-, le-, l-

KID do-, du-, de-

KEMAM kimo-, kimu-, kim-, ki-

So, what would be best? Five entries with multiple variants or nineteen separate entries?

[johnbent]

Let’s do them all in one. I’ll change the title of this Issue. Nice catch.

On Sun, Oct 23, 2022 at 12:42 PM ChrisPerrette @.***> wrote:

So something I have noticed. LE- and L- are good to add, but there are also other prefixes we are missing. We should have individual or combined entries for all these:

NGAK ku-, ke-, k- (not sure about ke-)

KAU chomo-, chomu-, chome-, mo-, mu-, m-

NGII/TIR lo-, lu-, le-, l-

KID do-, du-, de-

KEMAM kimo-, kimu-, kim-, ki-

So, what would be best? Five entries with multiple variants or over twenty separate entries?

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[ChrisPerrette]

Are you saying only one entry or one for each type?

[johnbent]

I’m saying we should try to create a single autoparse in this Issue that has all of them. I think that’d be easiest for us. Happy to change if you prefer splitting them up or if we try this way and discover it’s difficult.

On Sun, Oct 23, 2022 at 1:13 PM ChrisPerrette @.***> wrote:

Are you saying only one entry or one for each type?

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[ChrisPerrette]

Well, how do we do it with variant spellings? Do we just put a slash in the Palauan word? Also, which one would be the main entry? The 3rd person?

[johnbent]

You can do multiple entries in an autoparse. The 'w' token means start a new entry.

So it'd be something like:

w le- prefix a prefix signifying third person singular (he, she, it) or third person plural (those) for non-human objects. --lo var. le- --l- var. le- e A ngalek a diak a longang. --The child is not eating. w ku- ........

[ChrisPerrette]

Well, if we are doing it that way, why don’t we do one entry each for ku-, chomo-, lo-, do-, and kimo-, and put the variants of each with it? Or are you already saying that?

[johnbent]

Yes, we are saying the same thing.

So, what would be best? Five entries with multiple variants or nineteen separate entries?

Five entries word groups with multiple variants as stems off the root word. But do them all in this Issue in one autoparse comment please.

By the way, I created a Terminology Discussion to help ensure we use the same words and can better communicate our ideas. Please take a look and let me know if you have any questions: #375

[ChrisPerrette]

Oh, I understand now. So the autoparse can do multiple word groups at one time. (Thanks for the terminology post.)

[ChrisPerrette]

Wow, you totally already told me that exact thing, and I completely missed it. Sorry about that.

[johnbent]

Wow, you totally already told me that exact thing, and I completely missed it. Sorry about that.

No worries at all. I also see now that your original phrasing of the question ("So, what would be best? Five entries with multiple variants or nineteen separate entries?") was good but I didn't really understand it. If I had understood that and answered that, then this extra conversation wouldn't have happened. Sorry about that.

In any event, I think the Terminology discussion should help avoid confusion like this in the future. And it's really no big deal to me in any event. Super happy you are so enthusiastically helping out!

[ChrisPerrette]

I am glad I can help. Tekinged has been so helpful to me since it launched, and I don't think I could have learned as much as I have without it. So, I am excited to be able to contribute in this way.

[ChrisPerrette]

AUTOPARSE w ku- prefix xx --k- var. ku- e Ng diak kudenge er a ngklel. --I do not know his name. e Ng diak be krei el mo er a eai el klok. --I am not coming home until 8:00. e Aika el rokui a bo kbeskau a lsekum ke mo outubuach el mengull el meluluuch er ngak. --All these I will give you if you will bow down and worship me. l ku- ak ngak -ak

w chomo- prefix xx --chomu- var. chomo- --chome- var. chomo- --cho- var. chomo- --mo- var. chomo- --mu- var. chomo- --m- var. chomo- e Ak medengelii a chomoruul er ngii. --I know what you’re doing e Ng techa a chomulsa a delal? --Whose mother did you see? e Lak chomedakd, mesang, ak mesubed er kemiu er a ungil el klumech el klou el deurreng. --Do not be afraid, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy. e Ng diak chobo er a chei, e le ke menga el mo smecher. --You’re not going fishing, because you’ll get even more sick. e Monguiu er a buk er kau! --Read your book! e Chedam, mkebkellii a ngklem! --Father, glorify your name! l chomo- ke kau -au

w lo- prefix he, she, it; they. --lu- var. lo- --le- var. lo- --l- var. lo- e A Toki a diak losuub a tekoi er a Siabal. --Toki does not study English. e Ngak a lulderchak a sensei el subedau. --I was sent by the teacher to tell you. e Ng diak lesensei. --He is not a teacher. e Ng soak el melim a kohi a letutau. --I like to drink coffee in the morning. e Se el leme a Droteo e kede mo nguu a siasing. --When Droteo comes we will take a picture. e Ng diak lsebechek el menguiu. --I cannot read. e Bo lua isei. --So be it. / Amen. e Aika kulekoi er kemiu me a deurreng er ngak lebo er a chelsiu, me bo lecherrungel a deurreng er kemiu. --These things I have spoken to you, that my joy may be in you, and that your joy may be full. l lo- ng ngii -ii

w do- prefix xx --du- var. do- --de- var. do- e Mei domengur! --Come on, let’s eat! e Ng tiang a dulsiik er ngii? --Is this what we were looking for? e Bo dekaiuereked a chim. --Let’s join hands. l do- kede kid -id

w kimo- prefix xx --kimu- var. kimo- --kim- var. kimo- --ki- var. kimo- e A king a kmal mle soal a di kibo e kimorael el mo er a Artingal. --The king very much wanted us to just go and travel to Artingal. e Ke melatk aike el tekoi el kimullekoi er ngii er kau? --Do you remember the things we told you? e Se er a kimnguu a chesimer, e ng dimlak a ta el chad er a chelsel! --When we opened the door, there was no one inside! e Ak ngilai a bebil er a kall er a kibo er a kemeldiil. --I took some food when we went to the funeral. l kimo- aki kemam -emam

[johnbent]

Pretty awesome! A few things:

1. You are missing the English definition for ku-
2. But, also, ku- is already in there
   • Refer to https://tekinged.com/show_words.php?lookup=prefix for a quick way to see what is in there already please.
3. When a word is already in there, use xx as the definition. That is the weird way we get the autoparse to add new stem words to existing root words.
4. ke should be ke- to make it clear it is a prefix.
5. Are you sure that it ke- is one? Maybe 'diak keme krei' should be 'diak kme krei'.
6. A bunch in the 'chomo' group are already in there.
   • Actually a ton of these are already in. I think the autoparse will handle this by asking me if it is a new word or asking if I want to skip. But it definitely makes it easier for autoparse and me if you do not try to enter words which are already in the database.
7. I'm not sure how the autoparse handles blank lines.
   • Hmm, they are nice because they give a visual break. OK. I changed the autoparse to silently ignore blank lines.
8. Is du- only for past tense? Same with kimu- and chomu- and lu-? If so, let's put them in a different group and edit the definition to make this clear.
9. What do you think? Should we add links between these and the normal pronouns? That might be nice. Also, add links between the prefix and the corresponding suffix. So 'l chomo- -au kau' for example might be nice.

Super impressive job with all the sentences! We definitely want @smith-371 to approve and at least one of our friendly native speakers as well.

Once we have the approvals, please add the 'ready for import' label.

Thanks for all the tremendous hard work here!

[smith-371]

some corrections.

e Ng diak keme krei el mo er a eai el klok. --I am not coming home until 8:00. > Ng diak kbe krei el mo er a eai el klok. e Lak chomedakd, mesang, ak mesubed er kemiu er a ungil el klumech el klou el deourreng. --Do not be afraid, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy. > ...deurreng.

[johnbent]

@ChrisPerrette , given @smith-371 corrections, I think 'ke-' might not be a prefix meaning 'I/me'.

[ChrisPerrette]

So, I removed the ke- prefix and changed the example sentence I had for it. I am not convinced that it is a prefix anyway, despite Josephs's saying it is. He shows keme(i) as the 1st person hypothetical of me(i), but I have never seen this used anywhere. Plus, me(i) has an unusual usage as an imperative of itself, whereas it should theoretically be be(i).

So, the way Josephs explains the u-prefixes, the o from the normal prefix (chomo-, mo-, lo-, do, kimo-) mixes with the i from the past tense marker infix (-il-) and becomes u. So technically, yes, these would only appear in past tense verbs. How would we properly groups these, as you say?

Yes, I think links sound good. I have added a few for your perusal.