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tgstation / TerraGov-Marine-Corps

TGMC: TerraGov Marine Corps, a SS13 mod
GNU Affero General Public License v3.0
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increases resin jelly duration #16750

Open yyzsong opened 6 days ago

yyzsong commented 6 days ago

About The Pull Request

15 seconds -> 30

Why It's Good For The Game

fifteen fucking seconds is wayyyyy too short of a duration given how slow resin jelly is to produce, how easily spammable fire is, and how many xenos need it at once. Maybe 15 is acceptable for like, a spitter, or something, but xenos' main mode of engagement is still melee.

Not to mention that in the big xeno buff PR, the general trend was to make xenos slower, but have more health. This obviously reduces the effectiveness of resin jelly, as it makes engaging and disengaging much slower.

Changelog

:cl: balance: Increases resin jelly duration from 15 seconds to 30 seconds. /:cl:

MiniMeatwad commented 6 days ago

You should decrease the duration on being able to build resin jelly pods or create jelly, and make it a pure plasma cost, instead of increasing the duration on the buff that makes you totally immune to all fire and lava (even X-fuel). This change allows you to just run through an entire incendiary OB twice.

Personally I don't think it needs a buff at all, it's already fucked up when it gets used, but I'd prefer a more reasonable buff.

yyzsong commented 6 days ago

increasing the duration on the buff that makes you totally immune to all fire and lava

This is the explicit intention of the PR. It doesn't matter how much resin jelly you can make if it lasts approximately 2 seconds once you get in combat. Fire is incredibly easy to spam across large areas and xenos have very recently received a mass stat change that lowered movement speed. This has been a long time coming.

MiniMeatwad commented 6 days ago

This is the explicit intention of the PR. It doesn't matter how much resin jelly you can make if it lasts approximately 2 seconds

It takes like 4 seconds max to get to fighting, 1 if it's directly applied by a drone or something. That's 11+ seconds of being immune to fire.

yyzsong commented 6 days ago

11

you have to retreat, too. Across the fire.

MiniMeatwad commented 6 days ago

11

you have to retreat, too. Across the fire.

Play warrior

MiniMeatwad commented 6 days ago

Just so you know, resin jelly pods produce one jelly every 50 seconds, and grant 15 seconds of immunity. That means that you only need about 3.33.. jelly pods to keep one xeno perpetually immune to fire forever, and most of the time you heal for up to 15 seconds in the first place, so only about 1.66.. jelly pods to keep one xeno perpetually immune. By prep time standards (16 minutes), at the start of the game, 8 xenos can be totally immune to fire.

They take 1 minute to place, and so it takes one hivelord 2 minutes to grant a xeno total immunity to fire. Realistically not all xenos need fire immunity at the same time, because one of them (warrior) makes great use of the fire, and can throw the marine through the flames into other xenos so that the rest of them don't need fire immunity.

Barnet2 commented 6 days ago

Never really had an issue just throwing it on a beano and they do their short rotation and come back.

iforgotmeword commented 6 days ago

Doubling it seems funky why not 20 secs or 25?

Or why not make it only lose duration while standing in fire or taking damage? If the problem is you lose 90% of it's duration getting to the fight?

YehnBeep commented 5 days ago

Is this mechanic why xenos also seem to be immune to laser weapons at times?

ButterChugger commented 5 days ago

Just make it not activate until you take fire damage, then kick down the 15 second counter. Lasts a full minute sitting by idly then wastes away.

YehnBeep commented 5 days ago

I feel like this PR is the wrong direction to go.

I already see xenos happily ignore flames to run in, do their rotation, and run out through flames again and just... don't care, outside of the low castes. Flames are really ineffective as area denial unless a xeno player is new and doesn't realize how insignificant they are.

And do things like wade into lava without much thought to pull marines in.

Even very weak minions can withstand flames long enough to batter fortifications before dying. Last few days I've also seen things like a warlock just sit in flames while reflecting. And then all the upper combat castes never fear flames to run in and slash/ram/etc, that warriors can turn it around and inflict serious damage tossing marines in, etc.

I don't think making flames even more of a nonissue is the way to go.

If anything, I think flames should be scarier for xenos.

ivanmixo commented 3 days ago

Just so you know, resin jelly pods produce one jelly every 50 seconds, and grant 15 seconds of immunity. That means that you only need about 3.33.. jelly pods to keep one xeno perpetually immune to fire forever, and most of the time you heal for up to 15 seconds in the first place, so only about 1.66.. jelly pods to keep one xeno perpetually immune. By prep time standards (16 minutes), at the start of the game, 8 xenos can be totally immune to fire.

They take 1 minute to place, and so it takes one hivelord 2 minutes to grant a xeno total immunity to fire. Realistically not all xenos need fire immunity at the same time, because one of them (warrior) makes great use of the fire, and can throw the marine through the flames into other xenos so that the rest of them don't need fire immunity.

Nevermind that the xenos that place them down can also just pull one from the ether as an ability.