search

theCrag / website

theCrag.com: Add your voice and help guide the development of the world's largest collaborative rock climbing & bouldering platform
https://www.thecrag.com/
109 stars 8 forks source link

Show Trad rather than Mixed in ascent facetted search. #1005

Closed scd closed 11 years ago

scd commented 11 years ago

IMO Mixed routes flag is really only of value in the index, so for peoples ascent log we may just want to fall back to 'Trad'. People say that they are a trad climber or a sport climber, but I have never heard anybody say that they are a mixed climber.

brendanheywood commented 11 years ago

I kinda disagree. We should be consistent everywhere. In hindsight I think just making mixed a real type would have been much simpler and easier for everyone to understand.

Sent from my iPhone

On 01/03/2013, at 10:58 AM, Simon Dale notifications@github.com wrote:

IMO Mixed routes flag is really only of value in the index, so for peoples ascent log we may just want to fall back to 'Trad'. People say that they are a trad climber or a sport climber, but I have never heard anybody say that they are a mixed climber.

— Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHubhttps://github.com/theCrag/website/issues/1005 .

scd commented 11 years ago

Let's go slowly on this one then, given that we have different opinions. We have got other more important things we agree on so let's solve them first.

IMO, the last thing I want to see in my profile is a separation of mixed and trad. As a trad climber I just carried bolt plates in my chalk bag as another piece of gear. I never thought of a trad climb with one bolt plate as a lesser climb, and I would certainly never skip a bolt to claim it as a better style.

brendanheywood commented 11 years ago

Also here is a minimal test case:

http://www.thecrag.com/ascents/with-route-grade/AU:18:18/with-route-gear-style/trad/with-route-stars/3/by/10765333/with-tick-type/onsight/?sortby=route-gear-style,asc

Also what we disagree on, isn't actual what Jed's bug is. He doesn't want to change the display, simple the sort order, which could be as simple as an extra order by clause to include the # of bolts.

Maybe if we just rename 'trad' to 'trad / mixed' in the facet then the confusion would be reduced.

scd commented 11 years ago

both good points and would solve the issue. I think I will extend the sort.

scd commented 11 years ago

I have added the sort by bolts so this Jed's underlying problem is resolved.

I'm just going to close this issue and when we are ready we can have the big discussion on how to handle mixed in general.

BTW, just fixed on my server not on prod.

jed-climber commented 11 years ago

This explains why my logbook change. Mixed routes aren't trad routes, They should be totally separate. Otherwise when a route is nearly fully bolted but it has 1 piece of gear (mixed) then it will show up as a trad climb in your logbook.

scd commented 11 years ago

I would tend to put the route that is nearly fully bolted in as a sport route, with the trad gear clearly identified in the description. Mostly these cases the trad gear is used for extra protection. I often used extra trad gear in sport routes, especially when there was a bomber placement.

But what about the 100m trad route with one bolt to protect a run out situation. I would not want that identified as anything else but trad.

Personally I don't want to see a mixed category in my profile page. The profile should indicate what type of climber you are - sport, trad, boulder, ice, etc. I just don't think there is any space for a 'mixed' climber. Making mixed a separate column solves one problem but creates a whole set of other problems. It is significant work to change it over (may three days) and I am sure I will get more complaints doing it.

Brendan is on your side, but I am not there yet.

To be honest this debate is going to go on for a long time. If and when I change it I want to change it forever so we need to properly engage the community in a discussion, which I am not even prepared to start on until we have got traction with users from countries outside of Australia. I'm thinking that this will not happen for about 3 years.

In the meantime I am prepare to receive other ideas without it being a separate category.

brendanheywood commented 11 years ago

Ok just for some crazy edge cases. How should a trad climb be shown in a log book if you soloed it? How should a retro bolted trad climb, now a sport climb, be shown if you climbed it on gear? There's been a couple articles lately about crazy euro guys trad climbing, or perhaps head pointing, long established sport climbs. There's a climb in gara gorge which is listed as a grade 20, but also as a grade 4 kayak descent in flood :)

Unfortunately the world is pretty messy and we're only ever approximating it. The gear type is basically a reflection of the average way most people climb it. We're probably 98% close, and sure we could add mixed as a proper type but we are into 'diminished returns' territory. The current 'mixed' works well for mostly trad climbs, but I agree isn't ideal for mostly sport climbs.

jed-climber commented 11 years ago

I'd disagree that trad gear is for extra protection on most routes. Mr Joshua for example the trad gear is essential. So for that climb i changed it to a port route and noted that it needs gear. This is a hard one. Maybe the mixed category sound have a sub category to say if it is mostly sport or trad then it shows up in your logbook accordingly? For brendan's examples i would say a trad route is a trad route and the same with the sport ones. If it does get soloed or sport climb climbed on gear then that user should have the option to changed the style they climbed it in.

scd commented 11 years ago

The sub category would work, but that is a significant peice of work, turning a flat list into a structured hierarchy. It would be a fair while before I can free up enough time for this.