Add scramble gear style and UK scrambling grades

[artlessconstruct]

Issue The UK and other countries I'm sure have quite a few well known scrambles and scrambling guide books documenting them. Popular climbing websites like UKClimbling.com also list scrambles on their logbook pages alongside proper climbs (e.g. at Tryfan). Currently theCrag does not have a scramble gear style however. While a scramble could be considered a trad route with a tag in the description (such as #scramble as I've done so far) a scramble would be better recorded using a distinct gear style because

• Scrambles have their own grading systems. A distinct scramble gear style will make it easier to interpret a scrambling grade when adding a route as well as displaying it later on.
• Scrambling is a distinct sport/activity from trad climbing and so should appear separately from trad climbing in a climber's ascent profile.

Solution

• Add "Scramble" gear style.
• Add UK Scrambling Grades system.
• Add UK Scrambling Grades system interpretation for scramble routes to UK context.
• Potentially extend the YDS grade system to cover YDS grade classes 1 to 4 for scrambles in US contexts.
• In other contexts assume the existing grade systems in those contexts also apply to scrambles until known otherwise.

UK scrambling grades

• A grade of 1, 2 or 3 is used by many guidebooks throughout the UK as documented by the The British Mountaineering Council.
• This 1-3 scale has been extended to include an additional 3S ("S" for serious) by Steve Ashton's 1992 guidebook "Scrambles in Snowdonia" as documented in [Wikipedia].(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scrambling#Classification_systems).
• This 1-3 scale has been extended by an additional 4 and 5 for use in Scotland in at least 1 guidebook - Andrew Dempster's 1996 "Classic Mountain Scrambles in Scotland" as documented here, here and here.
• Hence to cover scrambling grades in most UK guidebook a single UK scrambling grade system could be created with 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5 grades as well as a 3S grade being equal in difficulty to the 4 grade.

Other scrambling grade systems

• Further investigation is required but:
  • In the USA YDS grade classes 1 to 4 might be used for scrambling according to the grading section of the Scrambling entry on Wikipedia .
  • In Europe UIAA grades I and II might be used according to the same entry on Wikipedia . The section on UIAA grades in the German climbing grades article on Wikipedia suggests that III might be used as well.

Background on Scrambling

• Definition of scrambling from wikipedia:

  "a walk up steep terrain involving the use of one's hands"

• Definition of alpine scrambling wikipedia:

  The Mountaineers climbing organization defines alpine scrambling as follows: Alpine Scrambles are off-trail trips, often on snow or rock, with a 'non-technical' summit as a destination. A non-technical summit is one that is reached without the need for certain types of climbing equipment (body harness, rope, protection hardware, etc), and not involving travel on extremely steep slopes or on glaciers. However, this can mean negotiating lower angle rock, traveling through talus and scree, crossing streams, fighting one's way through dense brush, and walking on snow-covered slopes.

• There are some routes that are sometimes considered scrambles and some that are considered climbs in different guidebooks but for the most part in the UK there is a consensus one way or the other.
  • Where there is no consensus it would be prudent to list them as trad routes to avoid encouraging scramblers without climbing experience or equipment to attempt them.
  • A notable example is Tower Ridge on Ben Nevis as described on Wikipedia. UKClimbing has it listed as a climb with grade Difficult "D").

[scd]

How does this relate to the Via Ferrata which is already in theCrag? Numeric (1,2,3,4,5,6) and Schall (A,B,C,D,E,F)

In the grades article you can test this by selecting via ferrata gear style and then typing in the grade

[artlessconstruct]

Not aware of any connection between UK scrambling grades and via ferrata grades. There are very few via ferratas in the UK and the few that do exist appear to be on private land according to this UKC forum.

In UK context you have to use a grade system prefix to enter a VF_NUM grade for a trad route, e.g. "VF_NUM:4", as otherwise it is considered a FR_ALT grade, e.g. "4" is considered a "FR_ALT:4" grade. That said I think it would be confusing for scramble grades to be using VF grades.

Similarly you could use a grade system prefix to enter a VF SCHALL grade (e.g. "SCHALL:C) for a trad route in UK context but as letter grades are not used for scrambles in the UK this would be even more confusing.

[scd]

From having a quick look Via Ferrata and Scramble looks like it is a pretty similar concept. We have a Via Ferrata gear style, which I would propose should be used for Scrambles. I think we need to establish this before we do any analysis on how to get around any grading system messes.

Note that we have called Via Ferrata a gear style as well as a grading system. If you were to log a Scramble on theCrag you should select the Via Ferrata gear style. Via Ferrata may not be the best naming of the gear style, but that decision was made a while ago.

When you have selected a Via Ferrata gear style both the Numeric and Schall systems will work without any prefixing. However I understand that we will have to introduce some further UK grading systems that will work under the Via Ferrata gear style.

Note that we define Gear Style by the type of gear you need. From that definition I think Scramble and Via Ferrata are the same.

[artlessconstruct]

In terms of gear on a via ferrata you would always take a VF lanyard (i.e. shock absorbing sling) unless you were confident and intended to solo it. This is even what theCrag gear style page says:

Via ferrata: Shock absorbing sling, crab claws. You might climb in sneakers or approach shoes.

VF lanyards would never be taken on a scramble so I can't see how a scramble could be a via ferrata if you're considering gear commonly used. In common with VFs you would nearly always use approach shoes or similar on a scramble, but this is not the defining gear of a VF. Also, I suspect that if it got out that British scrambles was listed on theCrag as via ferratas a fair number of UK scramblers would take it as an insult and strongly object!

On harder scrambles (grade 2 and higher according to the British Mountaineering Council) you might take a rope and possibly also protection so in terms of gear it could fit under the existing trad gear style (and harder scrambles are considered easy trad climbs and vice versa depending on which guidebook you're using). As I stated above though, to simplify grade entry and separate out scramble ascents in a profile I feel it would be off as a distinct gear style. And also, because a lot of scramblers wouldn't be interested in climbs, having scrambles clearly identified as such would allow them to easily search for and see what they want.

[brendanheywood]

Scrambling is hard hiking / easy solo climbing, it is not via ferrata at all.You don't need any gear at all for a scramble beyond a pair of sneakers, a via ferrata is harnessed and usually has crab claws or a double safely lanyard. Several grade systems around the world evolved our of hiking scales including YDS and the Ewbank and so are supersets of scrambling grades so from that angle a new gear style isn't needed.

eg routes like this (AU Ewbank grade 3) would be considered a scramble:

https://www.thecrag.com/climbing/australia/kaputar/route/12122923

The more important question is whether we care about scrambling at all. We've had similar requests for other climbing adjacent activities including abseiling, canyoning, slack lining, and even things like mountaineering and ice climbing we don't really support perfectly right now. On one hand I'm skeptical it would see that much use. On the other I'm more open the this idea than things like slack lining because it does directly overlap with climbing in various places, and also because it can also be used for approaches like this:

https://www.thecrag.com/climbing/australia/gara-gorge/dome-wall/route/1668862557

[artlessconstruct]

Personally, I don't care that much for scrambling, but I do know that there certainly are some die hard scramblers in the UK who do.

That said when it's been wet or I've been sick, resting or without a partner I have gone scrambling in the UK so having scrambles also listed alongside climbs on theCrag would be quite useful in these situations. Additionally, a trad route might be next to or sandwiched by 2 scrambles so having the scrambles marked on a topo can also be useful for route finding on approach or during a trad climb, especially on easy climbs where the route can be quite vague.

I also feel it's worth logging them because in the UK at least there are some mega classic scrambles and as such it's worth noting down which ones you've done.

[scd]

Great, if we do this then it is a new Gear Style. I am fine with this outcome and glad we went through the discussion.

Priority would be somewhat lower then some of the other grade improvements for UK.

[artlessconstruct]

I've let this idea sit for a while and here are some extra thoughts I've had since first raising it.

Just to make it clear, in the UK at least, scrambling is better considered easy climbing rather than hard walking and NOT always solo-ed as the BMC make clear in their grade guide:

Above this, for Grade 2 and 3 scrambles, the line between scrambling and rock climbing becomes a lot more blurred, and the use of protection becomes more advisable. There is a popular misconception that scrambling is a milder and less dangerous version of rock climbing - ‘climbing-lite’. But scrambling can be actually be the more serious activity, particularly in the higher grades, mainly because people typically attempt it with less protection than rock climbing or none at all.

This realisation got me thinking that a user selectable Scramble gear style may not be needed, and instead a system inferred Scrambling gear style might suffice or in fact be more appropriate. This would work in a similar way to the Mixed gear style where the user selects Trad gear style and specifies a number of bolts and the system then infers Mixed gear style.

So for scrambles a user would select a route to have Trad gear style and the system would then infer it as a Scramble if the route is in:

• UK context it and has a UK scrambling grade
• UIAA (or FR) context and has a UIAA grade of I, II or perhaps III (TBC)
• US context and has a YDS grade class 1, 2, 3 or 4 (TBC)

In other contexts it would just be a Trad route unless scrambling is a well recognised activity and a scrambling grade system exists (which theCrag would need to support) or there is otherwise an agreed-upon range of regular trad grades which are considered scrambles.

Similar criteria could then be used to factor out Scrambling ascents from Trad ascents in a user profile's ascent summary.

[artlessconstruct]

Also, to summarise all the reasons for having scrambles on theCrag:

• they are really just easy trad climbs - that said for some these easy climbs may in fact be quite hard and represent quite a challenge and so be of some interest, and they could also be particularly noteworthy due to the positions, views, etc enroute even if the movement is technically easy
• they can be used for approaches and descents as @brendanheywood suggested above
• they can aid route finding on nearby climbs as I suggested earlier
• they can be used as an emergency escapes from harder routes and so are important to document in particular in a mountain environment as they may be non-trivial and otherwise quite non-obvious