Allow users to enter personal notes, tags or icons for an area (mainly crag or sector)

[georg-d]

Situation: I oberserved I worked through the same irrelevant crags/sectors each time I plan a trip to a region that I visit infrequent enough to not know by heart which crags/sectors are to my taste and which are not. Hence, after reading details of a crag/sector, I realize that area is not relevant for me and I came across the same conclusion several times. This repeats with the next crag/sector. That slows down crag/sector selection, is needless waste of time, and sometimes even causes conflicts within the group / discourages use of TheCrag ("are you still not finished? drop that shitty website, use paper and let's start!")

Idea: Let's add a possibility to enter a personal textual note and/or tag and/or icon that is only relevant & visible for that individual user and speeds up decisions.

Example usages:

• tags or icons like 😀😐☹🔍 whether I (dis)like that crag/sector at all, or it's depending on details
• tags or icons like 🌞🌦❄ 🛠🕘🕛🕒 when I personally like to climb there (weather, season, workdays, time of the day,...) which differs between persons, e.g. subjective temperature feeling
• tags or icons like 💪🥱 in which state I like to climb there
• tags or icons like 🚗🚲🥾 which approaches are suitable for my taste
• note could contain more details to the above metioned, e.g. what is to my taste or not (like bolt density + placement), which of the approaches is to my taste and how long that takes for me (structured tags don't help here as it's just the walk time but appraoch startes from the home base which is highly individual), who of my mates does / does not like to go there, which of the accomodations is my preferred one, ...
• note could contain details of what I personally like to bring to that crag, e.g. which shoes, clip stick, material for approach path & crag maintenance,...

Thoughts about the feature

• Seems "cheap" in the sense it won't cause much data volume, is not requiring a complex GUI, has very limited interaction with other features, does not need versioning or translation,...
• would resemble hand written note in paper or PDF guide book
• it's known in general in the digital world, e.g. from social network Xing where you can add to each user a notice that is only visible for you
• it will naturally only work while logged in, which is another motivation for guest users to create an account – which is the main hurdle to add data to the site
• could be reserved for supporters or users with high karma, as it's mainly interesting for heavy users and as a reward to users helping to run the site (thus another motivation for users to support via money or time)
• Tags, icons and first 10-20 characters of note (followed by "...") could be displayed in map view, e.g. where indicated below. In case the popup shall not be enlarged much, the texts "66 routes" and "126 ascents" may be displayed left of the circle "66" which increases width only a little but frees up a lot of heigth.
• Tags, icons and full note could be displayed in the heading of crag/sector page, e.g. here:
• individual tags and notes could be used in search, e.g. "summer and peter" or "for 2 days" or "nice view"

[scd]

Some of this functionality is what lists are for. Have you played with this feature at all.

On Mon, Aug 14, 2023, 5:10 AM Georg-D @.***> wrote:

Situation: I oberserved I worked through the same irrelevant crags/sectors each time I plan a trip to a region that I visit infrequent enough to not know by heart which crags/sectors are to my taste and which are not. Hence, after reading details of a crag/sector, I realize that area is not relevant for me and I came across the same conclusion several times. This repeats with the next crag/sector. That slows down crag/sector selection, is needless waste of time, and sometimes even causes conflicts within the group / discourages use of TheCrag ("are you still not finished? drop that shitty website, use paper and let's start!")

Idea: Let's add a possibility to enter a personal textual note and/or tag and/or icon that is only relevant & visible for that individual user and speeds up decisions.

Example usages:

• tags or icons like 😀😐☹🔍 whether I (dis)like that crag/sector at all, or it's depending on details
• tags or icons like 🌞🌦❄ 🛠🕘🕛🕒 when I personally like to climb there (weather, season, workdays, time of the day,...) which differs between persons, e.g. subjective temperature feeling
• tags or icons like 💪🥱 in which state I like to climb there
• tags or icons like 🚗🚲🥾 which approaches are suitable for my taste
• note could contain more details to the above metioned, e.g. what is to my taste or not (like bolt density + placement), which of the approaches is to my taste and how long that takes for me (structured tags https://www.thecrag.com/en/article/tagging don't help here as it's just the walk time but appraoch startes from the home base which is highly individual), who of my mates does / does not like to go there, which of the accomodations is my preferred one, ...
• note could contain details of what I personally like to bring to that crag, e.g. which shoes, clip stick, material for approach path & crag maintenance,...

Thoughts about the feature

• Seems "cheap" in the sense it won't cause much data volume, is not requiring a complex GUI, has very limited interaction with other features, does not need versioning or translation,...
• would resemble hand written note in paper or PDF guide book
• it's known in general in the digital world, e.g. from social network Xing where you can add to each user a notice that is only visible for you
• it will naturally only work while logged in, which is another motivation for guest users to create an account – which is the main hurdle to add data to the site
• could be reserved for supporters or users with high karma, as it's mainly interesting for heavy users and as a reward to users helping to run the site (thus another motivation for users to support via money or time)
• Tags, icons and first 10-20 characters of note (followed by "...") could be displayed in map view, e.g. where indicated below. In case the popup shall not be enlarged much, the texts "66 routes" and "126 ascents" may be displayed left of the circle "66" which increases width only a little but frees up a lot of heigth. [image: 20230813 202154-Map Lecco Como (Milano) theCrag – Mozilla Firefox] https://user-images.githubusercontent.com/45993293/260320529-2958b619-47b3-49fe-8f31-7e82573e7347.png
• Tags, icons and full note could be displayed in the heading of crag/sector page, e.g. here: [image: 20230813 202614-Vezia, Sport climbing _ theCrag – Mozilla Firefox] https://user-images.githubusercontent.com/45993293/260320703-7a423f05-d069-4500-a0a2-81dbf9a7e2c3.png
• individual tags and notes could be used in search, e.g. "summer and peter" or "for 2 days" or "nice view"

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[scd]

Actually lists are not yet on areas, but they are eventually intended to be.

On Mon, Aug 14, 2023, 7:32 AM Simon Dale @.***> wrote:

Some of this functionality is what lists are for. Have you played with this feature at all.

On Mon, Aug 14, 2023, 5:10 AM Georg-D @.***> wrote:

Situation: I oberserved I worked through the same irrelevant crags/sectors each time I plan a trip to a region that I visit infrequent enough to not know by heart which crags/sectors are to my taste and which are not. Hence, after reading details of a crag/sector, I realize that area is not relevant for me and I came across the same conclusion several times. This repeats with the next crag/sector. That slows down crag/sector selection, is needless waste of time, and sometimes even causes conflicts within the group / discourages use of TheCrag ("are you still not finished? drop that shitty website, use paper and let's start!")

Idea: Let's add a possibility to enter a personal textual note and/or tag and/or icon that is only relevant & visible for that individual user and speeds up decisions.

Example usages:

• tags or icons like 😀😐☹🔍 whether I (dis)like that crag/sector at all, or it's depending on details
• tags or icons like 🌞🌦❄ 🛠🕘🕛🕒 when I personally like to climb there (weather, season, workdays, time of the day,...) which differs between persons, e.g. subjective temperature feeling
• tags or icons like 💪🥱 in which state I like to climb there
• tags or icons like 🚗🚲🥾 which approaches are suitable for my taste
• note could contain more details to the above metioned, e.g. what is to my taste or not (like bolt density + placement), which of the approaches is to my taste and how long that takes for me (structured tags https://www.thecrag.com/en/article/tagging don't help here as it's just the walk time but appraoch startes from the home base which is highly individual), who of my mates does / does not like to go there, which of the accomodations is my preferred one, ...
• note could contain details of what I personally like to bring to that crag, e.g. which shoes, clip stick, material for approach path & crag maintenance,...

Thoughts about the feature

• Seems "cheap" in the sense it won't cause much data volume, is not requiring a complex GUI, has very limited interaction with other features, does not need versioning or translation,...
• would resemble hand written note in paper or PDF guide book
• it's known in general in the digital world, e.g. from social network Xing where you can add to each user a notice that is only visible for you
• it will naturally only work while logged in, which is another motivation for guest users to create an account – which is the main hurdle to add data to the site
• could be reserved for supporters or users with high karma, as it's mainly interesting for heavy users and as a reward to users helping to run the site (thus another motivation for users to support via money or time)
• Tags, icons and first 10-20 characters of note (followed by "...") could be displayed in map view, e.g. where indicated below. In case the popup shall not be enlarged much, the texts "66 routes" and "126 ascents" may be displayed left of the circle "66" which increases width only a little but frees up a lot of heigth. [image: 20230813 202154-Map Lecco Como (Milano) theCrag – Mozilla Firefox] https://user-images.githubusercontent.com/45993293/260320529-2958b619-47b3-49fe-8f31-7e82573e7347.png
• Tags, icons and full note could be displayed in the heading of crag/sector page, e.g. here: [image: 20230813 202614-Vezia, Sport climbing _ theCrag – Mozilla Firefox] https://user-images.githubusercontent.com/45993293/260320703-7a423f05-d069-4500-a0a2-81dbf9a7e2c3.png
• individual tags and notes could be used in search, e.g. "summer and peter" or "for 2 days" or "nice view"

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[georg-d]

Thank you for your prompt reply 🙂 If you mean the list features described in https://www.thecrag.com/en/article/lists – I did look again at it and these lists do feel very much tailored to a very narrow use case and thus quite restricted. If it was extended to crags & sectors, it could resemble personal tags or icons to a quite limited degree, but not at all the personal free text I had in mind. Details:

• For each piece of information I'd note in a free text entry, I'd need to have a list – hence, I'll end up with hundreds of lists to get nearly the same functionality (one list for "take better photo for topo of left part of sector", one for right part, one for whole sector, ... one for "liked by Peter", one for "liked by Markus",..., one for "approach from south enjoyable", "approach from south not enjoyable",...) but still it will be too much effort to note stuff that is specific for one object like "approach from south via bike route 66 enjoyable but not via route 12"
• In map view and index/hierarchy, lists are of course not yet shown because maps & hierarchy display areas – which list's can't contain as of now ❌ Could be added not as easily as icons, because lists have names – which seduce to ener more than only few icons, so it becomes too long.
• In details of a crag, lists are visible ✅ But to see them, I need to hover the mouse over each single route – this is not really helpful for quickly getting an overview 😐 Moreover, I cannot quickly remove a route from one list, i.e. the inverse operation of "add x items to list" is missing. There's also no quick workaround as I cannot jump to a displayed list because the lists are shown in a tooltip which can't hold clickable links, but I have to memorize the list name, go to "your lists", find this list out of dozens or hundrets, open it, find the list entry I just came from, call it's context menu "remove list item" – this makes updating/maintaining information so cumbersome I won't do it ☹
• in search, I did not find how to search for routes being in two lists, or in one list but not another list ❌ Adding such a basic search logic is possible but requires to invent a GUI, while a text field is a no brainer and all search engines I know support operators like and, or, not etc.
• when looking at a list (i.e. listing the list content), I can't see where the list entry is located, so I can't work around the two limitations mentioned above (e.g. no map view) via this way. I am aware a list could be linked to areas deeper in the hierarchy levels, but that increases the number of lists by quite a factor.

[scd]

From memory the underlying design of list is meant to be flexible, but there is still a lot of UX to add to reveal this flexibility.

We would not add a completely new feature without fully exploring list enhancements. My guess is that we could get a lot of functionality with lists. Either way we have other priorities right now so it is a fair way off

On Mon, Aug 14, 2023, 10:23 AM Georg-D @.***> wrote:

Thank you for your prompt reply 🙂 If you mean the list features described in https://www.thecrag.com/en/article/lists – I did look again at it and these lists do feel very much tailored to a very narrow use case and thus quite restricted. If it was extended to crags & sectors, it could resemble personal tags or icons to a quite limited degree, but not at all the personal free text I had in mind. Details:

• For each piece of information I'd note in a free text entry, I'd need to have a list – hence, I'll end up with hundreds of lists to get nearly the same functionality (one list for "take better photo for topo of left part of sector", one for right part, one for whole sector, ... one for "liked by Peter", one for "liked by Markus",..., one for "approach from south enjoyable", "approach from south not enjoyable",...) but still it will be too much effort to note stuff that is specific for one object like "approach from south via bike route 66 enjoyable but not via route 12"
• In map view and index/hierarchy, lists are of course not yet shown because maps & hierarchy display areas – which list's can't contain as of now ❌ Could be added not as easily as icons, because lists have names – which seduce to ener more than only few icons, so it becomes too long.
• In details of a crag, lists are visible ✅ But to see them, I need to hover the mouse over each single route – this is not really helpful for quickly getting an overview 😐 Moreover, I cannot quickly remove a route from one list, i.e. the inverse operation of "add x items to list" is missing. There's also no quick workaround as I cannot jump to a displayed list because the lists are shown in a tooltip which can't hold clickable links, but I have to memorize the list name, go to "your lists", find this list out of dozens or hundrets, open it, find the list entry I just came from, call it's context menu "remove list item" – this makes updating/maintaining information so cumbersome I won't do it ☹
• in search, I did not find how to search for routes being in two lists, or in one list but not another list ❌ Adding such a basic search logic is possible but requires to invent a GUI, while a text field is a no brainer and all search engines I know support operators like and, or, not etc.
• when looking at a list (i.e. listing the list content), I can't see where the list entry is located, so I can't work around the two limitations mentioned above (e.g. no map view) via this way. I am aware a list could be linked to areas deeper in the hierarchy levels, but that increases the number of lists by quite a factor.

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[georg-d]

I understand & respect your point of view, just want to offer reflection: Is it a meaningful sequence to first fully implement lists, which seems to be a really big amount of work and thus will come in "far future", while personal notes seem easy to implement and could soon satisfy several of the use cases lists have been targeted at? No answer to me or the public needed, and answer "yes" is of course "allowed", e.g. if only lists pay in for other features on the roadmap, or the partly implementation of lists causes ongoing hassles/efforts/...

[scd]

I don't share your view that personal notes is easy to implement. No matter how we address this it is still in the far future.

[lordyavin]

Valid and available options:

• Mark crags as favourites if you like them
• Create bookmarks in your browser
• Enhance the description of the crags you like or don't like to support your usecase

[lordyavin]

@scd can we use hashtags in area description and filter on them?