Removing 3x3x3 With Feet as an official event

[lgarron]

Removing 3x3x3 With Feet from the list of official events is regularly requested.

In September 2017, a Delegate poll with the question "Should 3x3x3 With Feet be an official WCA event?" resulted in the following votes:

• Yes: 56
• No: 58

In November 2017, the Board agreed with a proposed plan:

The format of Feet should be changed from Mean of 3 to Average of 5. One year after the change has come into effect, we will analyze the popularity again. Feet will only be kept as an event if more than 30% of the competitions in the last 12 months held Feet and more than 4.5% of the competitors competing in the last 12 months competed in Feet.

The Ao5 change was #479. The previous discussion for removing 3x3x3 With Feet was #175.

2018 is not over yet, but the numbers are not on track for the proposed plan. Removing 3x3x3 with Feet in early 2019 is very short notice, so the overall WRC preference at the moment is to remove 3x3x3 With Feet from the list of official events in 2020.

(Note: This post was edited to include details about the Delegate poll from last year, since many people were assuming there was no vote.)

[pedrosino]

Is this independent on the 2019 numbers? I could see people arguing that it should stay if the numbers go up next year.

[UnsolvedCypher]

I'm not very happy with how this is being handled- this is an issue that would affect the WCA community at large, and it seems that this decision was made by the WRC and the Board without community input. I would strongly support an effort to gather feedback from the community on this change. If there is a desire to remove this event, I think the conditions for its removal (such as the 4.5% of competitors threshold) should be debated and disclosed in advance in a manner that's transparent to the community.

[samsschultz]

I second Matthew's concern. I believe the conditions for keeping 3x3x3 With Feet as an official event (30% of 2018 competitions, 4.5% of 2018 competitors having competed at least once in the event) should have been disseminated to the community in advance. As an organization, the WCA should be transparent about decisions and situations like this, as their outcomes will have a direct and noticeable effect on community members.

Keeping those conditions behind closed doors until recently is an example of a lack of transparency. I don't see a major problem with disseminating those conditions to allow the community to understand the process and to provide feedback relating to it.

If the WCA does not address the larger issue of lacking transparency in decision informing processes that affect community members, I fear it could lead to a long term impediment of growth and interest in the organization, especially as more organizational fragmentation is starting to occur in speedcubing at large.

[pedrosino]

I believe the reasoning in not disclosing those conditions was to avoid inflated numbers. People who really care about the event would have pushed hard on organizers to hold it, creating a "false" demand and non-natural growth/numbers.

[tobby125]

The 30% requirement doesn't make much sense to me. This year FMC, 4BLD, 5BLD, and MBLD were all held at less than 30% of competitions. Although there may not have been many new competitors, there is still an apparent increase in popularity, as many people are now taking the event much more seriously. 66% of the top 100 feet average rankings were just set this year with an average of 5. At the end of 2017, 4 people had sub 30 averages, now 11 people do. I can only see the popularity of feet growing even more, and it's very unfortunate that so many people that have dedicated so much time to the event, especially those that gained interest this year, will now see all their hard work go to waste.

[samsschultz]

I understand that reasoning for those specific metrics, though Delegates already have the responsibility of ensuring all events are proportionally included in their region's competitions relative to regional popularity and demand, so a Delegate could have simply refuted such pressure to hold the event at a particular competition if it wouldn't have been appropriate.

I also believe the entire process should have been made more public, as there has yet (to my knowledge) to be publicly disseminated information explaining, rationalizing, or otherwise justifying the decision to remove (or explore the removal of) the 3x3x3 With Feet. The WCA should be trying to serve the community as well as possible, and I therefore believe obtaining an accurate community perspective to understand the ramifications of such a big decision is essential.

[CarterKoala]

Yes, I would love to see more about how this decision came about.

This seems really random and unexpected at all. I haven't even seen any [good] arguments for why it should be removed. The main argument I've seen is that it's gross, which is just not true compared to your hands.

One thing I also don't get is why the WRC is voting on this. Having 6 people vote on removing an event, where most are biased against it, is just stupid IMO.

WRC members: -Competes consistently, has had 9 NRs in the event -4:30 single, hasn't competed since 2013 -7:23 single, hasn't competed since 2012 -3:16 mean, hasn't competed since 2015 -6:46 mean, competed 3 times in 2016 -Never competed -Never competed

[jamesquinn1]

To start: I am strongly against the removal of feet, and this is a hill I will die on.

Here are some of my reasons:

Unpublished rates: As far as I know (and I very well might be wrong) the 30% of competitions must host feet was never posted, and I believe that more competitions would have hosted the event in order for it to be kept. Unfair rates: I believe that the 30% was unfair, as at least 4 other events have below 30% as well. Also, feet hadn't been over 25% since 2013, so expecting it to hit 30% wasn't going to happen, and in my opinion the board was intending an hoping to remove it. It did increase however. Unfair voting: I believe that for an event removal, there should be more than 6 people voting. Also, only one of those people has competed in feet since 2016, and they are also the only one who's times show more than a day of practice. Removal of events in the past Only 2 events have been removed that were held for a decent length of time, the magics, and they had to be removed, not just some people wanted them to be removed. From my understanding they were removed because they weren't twisty puzzles, were impossible to judge, likely weren't being held under the same circumstances all around the world, and created many incidents. None of these apply to feet. Changing of format unfair I believe that changing the format one year ago was unfair to competitors if the wca was intending to remove the event, as changing the format to more solves seemed to give of the impression of feet being a more serious event, and that it was here to be kept. This caused people to put a lot more practice into the event, and that time can seem wasted now. Why I think the event is held so rarely:

Equipment Delegates often don't want their equipment used for feet, and will prohibit organizers who want to hold the event from having it. Yes, organizers can get other equipment, but this adds a step in the process and I believe many organizers would just scrap the idea. I also believe that this leads to less people getting to compete, and subsequently getting into the event, and wanting to compete more, and hosting it. Moving forward: I believe that the event should be kept. I am personally fine with changing the event back to mo3 so it takes less time and can be held more. I just want to be able to keep doing the event.

In closing, I think that people need to be more aware of feet. I know lots of non-cubers who are more impressed by feet than by standard solves. I think that Daniel Rose-Levine and others are finally bringing exposure to the event and as such people are considering doing it. Removing it now while it is really beginning to show where it could go I don't think it's the correct idea. The world record has improved a lot lately and from what DRL told me he averages, it will improve a lot more. I also think it is an event where people who aren't usually considered super elite can win as it is a very different kind of skill, and that gives more people chances to podium and set records, encouraging them to cube more.

[casiku]

From what I can read in these github issues, I don’t think the board really understands what it takes to be a feet solver. 3x3 WF is an event that requires few moves and therefore logic, lookahead and many algorithms. You can’t just spam 60 moves to become fast, like you can in two- and one-handed, since TPS maxes out at ~2 TPS. I learned ~200 algorithms for feet, and because of the nature of the event, these algorithms are useless in other events like two- and one-handed. These algorithms are near-optimal and involve mostly R/F/B/U in an order that would be very awkward to execute with hands.

[tnorr]

None of this makes sense to me. The numbers clearly tell that feet has gained a much wider popularity this year than before. Setting an arbitrary limit to remove it as an event, behind the community's back, requiring the popularity to rise much more than expected, during one year when a new format has just been introduced is just plain misuse of board's power. It's not possible to make the process more biased when it's clear that the people voting are the people who couldn't personally care less about the event. The least that should be done is to follow the change in popularity for at least another year AND definitely implement a way to use the opinion of a wider community.

As to the organizational issues, it's up to the organizers to worry about those. There's not much to worry about but if it's a huge problem, no one is required to hold the event. Why should it be a reason to ban everyone from holding it?

Thank you, makes me lose a lot of respect for the WCA.

[Sixstringcal]

I personally think this should have been more open to the community and more transparent. People should have known that if they organized a comp with feet it could have helped save it. I get there's a bias, but it allows organizers that are interested in feet, or at least don't want to see feet go for one reason or another can do something. This news was very sudden and unexpected. As an event, I think it's a fun and refreshing event. It's not my main event and it's not an event I practice much, but I compete in it whenever I can and I think it's cool watching people solve it way faster than I can with their feet. It's a very difficult thing solving a cube with your feet, and people have worked so hard to improve. As stated before, many of their algs don't make sense to use anywhere else. These people have dedicated so much time to this only for it to be irrelevant.

[zzwerling]

There needs to be a better voting system. As carter said, having 7 people decide, most of which who clearly have not practiced feet (according to their results), is unfair. I think the WCA should implement some sort of system allowing the community to vote. This would require a lot of time and effort to create a system that works and isn't biased, but I believe something could be achieved, assuming that some restrictions are placed in order to prevent nonsensical voting.

[kingmathyall]

@jamesquinn1

I completely agree that feet should not be removed. You bring up very good points that I 100% agree with and I believe this should at the very least be decided by a community vote.

[jamesquinn1]

Also, for the announcement of the removal of master magic, the WCA supplied reasons for the deletion.

(From the wca forum post) As a result of discussions between the WCA Board and the WCA delegates, the board has decided to remove Magic and Master Magic from the list of WCA sanctioned events at the end of the year 2012. Starting on January 1, 2013, the WCA will no longer accept or sanction events and times for Magic and Master Magic. Whereas we realize that many members of our community are extremely dedicated and passionate regarding these events, we have decided to remove them for the following reasons: 1. Lack of puzzle quality - Magic and Master Magic are rote processes that require no thinking. The events are simply a measure of a competitor's ability to perform a unchanging set of physical moves. Although other events, such as 3x3x3 speed solve does have elements that are similar to repetitive physical tasks, the lack of an analysis element in Magic and Master Magic make them less creative activities. 2. Difficulty in regulation - The nature of Master and Master Magic is such that the start and the finish are critical to the competitor's time. As such, whether intentional or unintentional, it is very difficult for even experienced judges to determine whether the solve's start or finish has been performed in accordance to regulations. The WCA has reason to believe that these events have not been held under consistent circumstances around the world. The WCA emphasizes that these inconsistencies are as a result of the nature of the event more than the experience of the officials. Magic and Master Magic events will continue to be held at WCA events throughout the end of 2012, at which time the WCA will archive the results of these events. If you have any questions, concerns, or comments, please contact your local WCA delegate. Regards, Tyson Mao

This also went to a delegate vote.

[cubewhiz]

When the WRC provided the benchmarks to the WCA Board last year, we evaluated whether it would be better to provide or withhold them. It was determined that withholding the benchmarks will provide us with more natural numbers and avoid people hosting competitions with 3x3x3 with feet just for the sake of trying to save the event (and likewise to prevent those who want to see the event removed from not allowing it to be held). Comments like, "People should have known that if they organized a comp with feet it could have helped save it." and "As far as I know (and I very well might be wrong) the 30% of competitions must host feet was never posted, and I believe that more competitions would have hosted the event in order for it to be kept." point out precisely the reason we did not publish the benchmarks. While there was no community vote (nor do we have the means in place to have one yet), there was a vote among Delegates last year.

[jamesquinn1]

@cubewhiz Bob, Thanks for clearing that up. Was there a delegate vote recently, to determine whether to remove the event, or was it just the WRC?

[cubewhiz]

@jamesquinn1 There was a Delegate vote in 2017 regarding this. There was not one in 2018.

[ccbaird]

@cubewhiz Is there any plan to have a delegate vote on the issue? It may be naive of me, but I'm inclined to think that the apparent improvement in the level of competition, if not in raw numbers, may warrant at the very least an extension of the probationary period.

For what it's worth, I for one really enjoy WF and have competed in the past, but during 2018 I had only one competition that was near enough and without a schedule conflict that held WF. I got about 5 miles down the road on the way there and the brakes on my car went out. I decided against driving another 80 miles without brakes, and skipped the competition. I look forward to competing in WF at least one more time at the competition I am organizing in February, and sincerely hope it's not the last time I have the opportunity to do so. I will comment later with the arguments that I personally find compelling for keeping WF as an official event, but I need to sleep now. Thanks!

[Joliv3r]

Removing feet as an event will be a huge loss. Feet is a unique event (since it's the only event where you can't use your hands) and it keeps variety in the WCA. Feet is also different from the other 3x3 events because you have to be both efficient and fast. Since it's really hard to turn very fast at feet, a lot of the techniques and algs people have learned especially for feet will go to waste. This because they're not any good for other 3x3 events (maybe except FMC).

I can't see any good reasons to remove feet either. As mentioned in other comments, 4BLD, 5BLD, MBLD, and FMC did not meet the requirements set for feet. It's unrealistic to think feet would meet these requirements both because it never has and other events also don't meet them. As I understand in the removal of magic and master magic, is that it was necesarry because it required no thinking, and that it essentially was just doing the same thing over and over again. Feet on the other hand is not anything like this. It requires more thinking to do feet than normal 3x3 because it's so important to be efficient. Magic and master magic was also difficult to judge and was held under different circumstances at different competitions. This is also not the case for feet, since it's judged in the same way as normal 3x3.

In conclusion, there is no reason to remove feet as an event. It's different from other events, which make you more skilled if you're good in every event. It's also different from normal 3x3 solving, because you have to be more efficient and can't just spam tps. None of the reasons magic and master magic was removed applies to feet. It's definitely a solve and not just the same procedure over and over, and feet is not hard to judge. That it's "gross" is not a reason to remove feet.

[pajwo]

      There needs to be a better voting system. As carter said, having 7 people decide, most of which who clearly have not practiced feet (according to their results), is unfair. I think the WCA should implement some sort of system allowing the community to vote. This would require a lot of time and effort to create a system that works and isn't biased, but I believe something could be achieved, assuming that some restrictions are placed in order to prevent nonsensical voting.

How is that even relevant? They are mature people, don't expect from them practicing 3x3 with feet. The case of removing feet as an official event was brought up many times on speedsolving forum and every time majority of people was against keeping it. There is no need for letting community vote as the WCA Board clearly knows what they are doing and they are doing it because we wanted it. It's a result of years of complaining about this event and I am really glad they finally started to act.

The only issue I can see is that if feet will be removed, Clock should go as well for a number of reasons. That would be 4th event getting removed (not counting mbld old style and that weird diamond cube). Really, I don't mind it, but it would be nice to see some events being added. Unfortunately it's hard to find an unique puzzle which isn't similar to current events. People often mention Team BLD and Kilominx though.

[tnorr]

It seems to me there have been a lot of issues with feet and clock being too different. Why is the goal finding a new event that is unique and not similar to current events then?

[lgarron]

I'd like to thank everyone for taking the time to weigh in here – I appreciate the constructive tone.

As mentioned in the first post, the WRC does not plan to recommend removing 3x3x3 with Feet in Jan. 2019, which means we have more time to discuss the process.

From the response to this issue, it sounds like a lot of people feel like there should be more voices contributing to this particular decision. While it seems that the community is (and will remain) fairly divided on this, I would definitely love to see a community-wide survey to understand competitor's opinions and preferences. The WCT is now interested in doing such a survey, so I hope we can make that happen.

Reasons that people do/don't like the event are fairly understood (#175), so I think it would be most useful to discuss how to get a representative view of the entire community. To this end, it would be useful to work towards a set of questions that are appropriate to ask about what people think of 3x3x3 With Feet and what should be done with its official status.

[jamesquinn1]

"How is that even relevant? They are mature people, don't expect from them practicing 3x3 with feet." When the voting members aren't qualified to make the vote, it's bias.

"The case of removing feet as an official event was brought up many times on speedsolving forum and every time majority of people was against keeping it." I found 3 polled thread on ss about removing feet https://www.speedsolving.com/forum/threads/should-3x3x3-with-feet-remain-an-official-wca-event.48355/ 44% keep, 36% remove, 19% no opinion https://www.speedsolving.com/forum/threads/3x3-feet-as-an-event.63754/ 71% keep, 18% remove https://www.speedsolving.com/forum/threads/remove-3x3x3-with-feet-as-an-official-event.43591/ 48% keep, 19% remove, 32% dont care.

I think the majority of people are for keeping the event based on ss numbers.

"There is no need for letting community vote as the WCA Board clearly knows what they are doing and they are doing it because we wanted it." The community needs a vote. Also, WCA dues make this taxation without representation :(

[ccbaird]

@jamesquinn1 it is worth noting the dates of those polls: 48% remove, 32.3% keep, 19.7% don’t care August 13, 2013 36.5% remove, 44.4% keep, 19.2% no opinion July 6, 2014 28.4% remove, 71.6% keep February 2, 2017

The polls have different options, and aren’t perfectly comparable, but that looks like a trend toward sentiment favoring keeping feet as an official event to me.

[tobby125]

I don't think people's sentiment towards the event in 2013 should really affect any decision now. I know a lot of people that used to think feet was stupid, but started practicing this year, and now they really like it. I only think this trajectory will continue.

In terms of whether or not the WRC members are "mature" people, I'm sure they are. They are making the decision that they feel is best and that is fine. However, the WCA is a community organization, and I believe that if most of the community wants something to happen, it should. 6 people couldn't possibly represent the 100,000+ people in the WCA.

[Tehzeebkohli]

I really hope the WCA takes into consideration the passion and hard work put into by the feet solvers. We have witnessed such fabulous results this year. As a community we need to be inclusive, kind, considerate and sensitive to other people around us. A decision like this would leave so many feet solvers heartbroken and demotivated. Keep feet and clock. There are plenty of clock fanatics around as well as die hard fans of feet solving. Some people may not like either but that doesn’t take away the love and passion for these events which so many members of the community have.

[lgarron]

Since many people are assuming this was "just a vote of 6 people", I've added details to the first post in this issue about last year's Delegate poll.

[Joliv3r]

I don't think we should remove an event because of a vote which was almost a tie (56 to 58). In the removal of an event it should be clear problems with the event and a big majority should be against it. Removing an event because of a 56 to 58 vote seems rediculous to me. This is 49.13% to 50.87%.

[tnorr]

^ completely agree, this is so ridiculous

[CarterKoala]

Yeah, if there’s a vote on such a big change as this, then there should have to be overwhelming support to change it for it to be changed, 75% at minimum. 50.87% is just crazy...

[lgarron]

I don't think we should remove an event because of a vote which was almost a tie (56 to 58).

Indeed, this is what led to the change in format and the evaluation proposal.

[ccbaird]

Am I understanding correctly that the initial “should it be an event” question was voted on by delegates and effectively tied, but the format change and conditions for continuing were only voted on by the board?

[jamesquinn1]

Also, I think a delegate vote now is mandatory at a minimum. That proposal was a year ago, and a lot as changed, including delegates minds. There is also many new delegates. For the event to be removed, I feel another delegate vote is needed, with a percentage way above 50.8%. A community vote is also needed.

[CarterKoala]

Since many people are assuming this was "just a vote of 6 people", I've added details to the first post in this issue about last year's Delegate poll.

This doesn’t help the fact that 6 people made the final decision on something as big as removing an event.

[lgarron]

This doesn’t help the fact that 6 people made the final decision on something as big as removing an event.

Please note that there has been no final decision yet. That would be when the Board decides to accept concrete Regulations changes proposed by the WRC (which will not happen this year).

[ccbaird]

@jamesquinn1 is there precedent for a community vote? I definitely agree there should be a delegate vote, I’m just a little concerned about the logistics of having potentially tens of thousands of people vote on an issue that objectively a majority have no opinion one way or the other on.

[CarterKoala]

@ccbaird I know a lot of people in Cyoubx’s Friends were talking about it, but there wasn’t really a good way that anybody has thought of to do it.

[lgarron]

Also, I appreciate that people are continuing to send constructive comments here and via email!

I don't want to promise that anything particular will/won't happen based on the feedback we get, but this public GitHub issue is not the final step in the process and we are listening!

[lgarron]

Am I understanding correctly that the initial “should it be an event” question was voted on by delegates and effectively tied, but the format change and conditions for continuing were only voted on by the board?

Correct!

[jamesquinn1]

@ccbaird

There is currently nothing that I know of, but the WCT I've heard is working on it. I drafted some very rough guidelines on who can vote, generally based on activeness at competitions with a friend of mine. I can post that once we finish if anyone's curious.

[jamesquinn1]

I'm not sure if the wca will consider this, but I made a petition yesterday mostly out of curiosity and it is currently at 420 signatures. I don't think the wca has ever considered one before, but this one has gotten more signatures than most other cubing ones, and I think it should be considered.

Most of you have probably already seen it but here's the link: https://www.change.org/p/world-cube-association-keep-the-3x3x3-with-feet-event-official

[Tehzeebkohli]

The WCA made a fabulous decision by changing the format in the beginning of 2018. The crazy records being set speak for themselves. Maybe the number of participants have increased only slightly but the fact remains that they have increased. Take into consideration that this new format has given rise to quite a number of new participants who are passionate and enthusiastic about feet solving. Every great change takes time.... after motivating the participants in 2018 with the new format and now giving a deadline of removing this event in 2020 totally defeats the purpose, in my humble opinion. Firstly I feel no event should be removed be it clock or feet because it is loved by a large group even though they may not be a majority. Secondly removing feet in 2020 will demotivate so many cubers who will no longer want to participate in their favourite event and fall more in love with it only for it to be taken away from them in 2020 leaving them heartbroken. Think about it!!! This is just my humble opinion... why not give feet the encouragement it deserves, which was so rightly done by the WCA in 2018 and watch for 4-5 years to see where it goes. Then maybe a discussion and a vote can be taken. Every great change takes time... it starts off a trickle only to grow from strength to strength. Feet has given us some thrilling moments after the change in format which only shows that this change was so motivating for feet solvers. The deadline of 2020 will ruin whatever good that we’ve seen in 2018 after the new format. As a community it’s important to listen to the minority as well. That’s what makes us a community, that’s what makes us a global family.

[cubewhiz]

Am I understanding correctly that the initial “should it be an event” question was voted on by delegates and effectively tied, but the format change and conditions for continuing were only voted on by the board?

Correct!

Actually, only partially correct. The format change was voted upon by the Delegates, too, but the decisions were proposed by the WRC and agreed upon by the WCA Board.

Yeah, if there’s a vote on such a big change as this, then there should have to be overwhelming support to change it for it to be changed, 75% at minimum.

Do you support the change that was made to change the format of feet from mean of 3 to average of 5? In that vote, there was more support for mo3 than ao5, but we made the change anyway. Sometimes, we make decisions even without an overwhelming majority.

[jamesquinn1]

I don't really care between mo3 and ao5, but if I had to pick I'd go for ao5. A change like that I think doesn't need an overwhelming majority, but removing an event entirely does.

[CarterKoala]

Yeah, as James said, that’s a bit different. I don’t necessarily agree with that if there was more support for ao5 over mo3, although I do remember quite a lot of people wanting it to be ao5.

[Tehzeebkohli]

Making it Ao5 was a fabulous decision and has positively impacted the feet solvers. The thrilling records speak for themselves. I really hope the WCA would continue encouraging feet like they did with the format change and see how amazing feet solving eventually becomes. I’m absolutely positive about this!!!! No participant wants to feel like his favourite event is no longer going to be there in a year. It’s just so sad. Everything is not about numbers, (even though the numbers for feet solving after the new format clearly support the event) Emotions, passion and hard work should also be considered as well as so many dreams which will be shattered if feet is taken out in 2020 I

[pd159]

I'd be so happy if feet gets removed. It's horrible to host at comps due to sanitary issues and is overall an abomination to not only inside the cubing community but also to the perception of the hobby by non-cubers.

It's funny how some people are complaining about not having known about the 30% threshold for last year; they had a reason for not publicly disclosing that. If they announced it then the number of feet comps would have risen artificially, which is obviously bad

[Aimankoli]

Feet is such a unique event and so much fun to watch. Many people call it weird, disgusting, gross, etc, but it's a really cool skill to have. And feet requires you to be more efficient than any other event. Although more people may not have competed in the event, it has definitely become more popular as we can see by the results people have been getting. We have 3 sub 20 singles now, and in 2017 we had none. The amount of sub 30 averages have tripled. It would be bad to see this event go when the results are becoming so much better

[lgarron]

I'd like to thank everyone for continuing to send constructive comments to the WRC!

To reiterate the first post, the WRC is not pursuing this change for the Jan. 2019 Regulations. We (and the Board) are discussing the best way to continue to evaluate 3x3x3 With Feet during 2019 – in particular, how to get an appropriate view of the community's preferences – but I don't have more to share at this moment.

[J-Rohault-dF]

Again, the most important decisions (adding or removing an event) should need a supermajority (either 60%, 66.6% or 75%, I'll let you decide). It should maybe also need an overall majority in a community poll via the WCA website