Get started exchanging ideas

[meisl]

First of all (moving over from the zachtronics forum): again Hello @tjohnman, and Thank You!

I really appreciate your initiative, as well as your spirit ("fans can make). Therefore I'm pretty sure we'll be able to get up something interesting together.

As mentioned, I'm really not so much into C++. And of SFML I heard ... well, today. I have, however, heard of (and used) VS, although mostly C#. My vision - and first step - was to re-implement it in JS, so it'd still be a browser game but not in Flash. Yes.

• So here then is my 1st q: What are you thinking right now? I mean what's your genuine, immediate reaction to this "C++ vs JS"? You know, not so much about where / whether we go. Rather that I'd like to get to know you. And I do know stupid prejudices amongst this or that camp, believe me. So please, tell me right away. Should there really be such an issue then well, let's put it up and solve it. Either way, I can already imagine several ways of doing so, including my getting into C++ & SFML, good reasons presumed.
• Next, let me ask what you're thinking of my proposal of applying temporal logic, particularly model checking. Have you done something re that or is it rather like me & C++?
• Another thing, although not so pressing atm, is how to relate to zachtronics. I mean the primary purpose of my posting in their forum was to actually get some statement from them, but none so far. I skimmed through the repo and noticed that you did make your own graphics. In my own (still private) attempt I just copied everything, although I think the user XP / user interface does deserve some major improvement. Nevertheless, staying compatible - even on the UI level - to some extent seems important to me. Anyways, having copied 1:1 (ie the graphics) is what kept me from making it public so far. I do, however, share your spirit of "totally open" (obviously?). So that's basically it: should this really be getting anywhere workable we have to have an official relationship / agreement with zachtronics about it.
• And finally - maybe anticipating the discussion a bit - have you thought of, or better: heard of, or even better: yet experienced the possibility of serious JS development? I mean unit testing, at the least. It does exist. Here's one more: in my view, JS relates more to Scheme or LISP than to Java or C(++) or what-have-you. How can you relate to that? So, my question really is: assuming you haven't already, is it conceivable for you to get into that business in order to build a truly amazing Kohctpryktop?

Ok, so this one's for getting to know each other, or set-up. It's meant to open discussion, and I do mean open. I can even imagine to have implementations in both, C++ and JS, and still benefit from each other, really. Beyond that I'm looking forward to delving into details. Must refrain myself from dropping some :)

[tjohnman]

OK, I'll address your points in order:

• I've tried prototypes of this in JS, Lua (Löve) and C++. I've had different problems with each, and I've finally decided C++ is the best suited for me because the inflexibility of the language (or rather, the strictness), helps me establish the game logic better. I don't have prejudices against languages, I always choose what works best for me given the circumstances.
• I have no idea what temporal logic is. Sounds interesting, could you tell me more about it?
• This is an open-source clone of a freeware game that doesn't use any art, trademarks or code from the original. It cannot be argued that it could hurt Zachtronics in any way and is certainly within the law. Aside from that, I'd like to consider it a tribute, rather than anything else. I'm going assume trying to get a statement from them would do nothing more than bother them needlessly.
• I don't understand your point. This is a hobby for me and I don't intend to monetize it in any way, nor to approach it as anything different, as that would really defeat the purpose of a hobby.

Take a look at the code (or even compile yourself a build) and see what's in there. The basics of the UI are already functional, and I'll be working in the simulation logic next.

I have no problem in you working in your own Javascript project in parallel, or even you using the clumsy graphics I've made for your own purposes.

[meisl]

Yeah, great man! That's the kind of response I was hoping (or poking?) for! So here we go:

I've tried prototypes of this in JS, Lua (Löve) and C++. I've had different problems with each, and I've finally decided C++ is the best suited for me because the inflexibility of the language (or rather, the strictness), helps me establish the game logic better. I don't have prejudices against languages, I always choose what works best for me given the circumstances.

Sure enough. Q is what are the circumstances? Entailing: what effort who's to put into it? Anyways, so this tells me that statical typing is of real importance for you. Is it also having a class system built into the language? You mention JS and Lua which are both prototypal (as opposed to class-based) and dynamically-typed (NOT: weakly-typed; they're dynamically but nevertheless strongly typed). From my experience, statical typing and / or classes do NOT really provide that much more safety and scalability as they (in school, university, mainstream) always tell you. It's much more a matter of being-used-to, and experience, than of the language itself. So you've done some things in such languages (like I've done some things in C++) but not really "big" stuff (like I haven't in C++)? Correct? Would you be willing to give a JS approach another try, say if I put up something to look at? Btw: by Lua I mean that Brazilian thing. What did you mean by "Lua (Löve)"? Same thing or not?

I have no idea what temporal logic is. Sounds interesting, could you tell me more about it?

It is, and I will! Actually, that's my main point/idea in improving Kohctpryktop. It's moving from some fuzzy, statistical kind of verification to definite, precise specification of what the circuit is expected to do, down to the ticks level. Including the precise definition of allowed margins wrt timing (!). It's doable in principle, my endeavour here is to find out if it's practically applicable in a game like that (and see what size is manageable). Another challenge will be to find a way for users (fans) to create such specifications without having studied logic and without having to write crazy cryptic formulas - a challenge indeed. Concretely, I'm thinking of CTL (computation tree logic), implemented using BDDs (binary decision diagrams). (just to give you some starter, of course I'll be happy to go into a more detailed discussion)

This is an open-source clone of a freeware game that doesn't use any art, trademarks or code from the original. It cannot be argued that it could hurt Zachtronics in any way and is certainly within the law. Aside from that, I'd like to consider it a tribute, rather than anything else. I'm going assume trying to get a statement from them would do nothing more than bother them needlessly.

Hmm, you're probably right - "open-source clone of a freeware game"... But still, I'd really like to "have them in" in one way or another. Be it only to gain some publicity for our own thing here. Anyways, I'll put aside my qualms for now.

I don't understand your point. This is a hobby for me and I don't intend to monetize it in any way, nor to approach it as anything different, as that would really defeat the purpose of a hobby.

Hehe, I don't understand that either, sorry :) I do not and did not mean to monetize this in any way. Not sure which point of my post you're referring to. I do, however, want to approach it seriously and develop some software in a professional manner - which, for me, does not conflict at all with doing it as a hobby ;)

Take a look at the code (or even compile yourself a build) and see what's in there. The basics of the UI are already functional, and I'll be working in the simulation logic next.

I will, promised. Be prepared to be bothered with stupid newbie questions how to get things to work...

I have no problem in you working in your own Javascript project in parallel, or even you using the clumsy graphics I've made for your own purposes.

Yeah, but how much better would it be if we worked on the same thing in the same language together? Still not out of my reach. Yours?

[meisl]

Add-on re temporal logic (quoting myself):

[...] It's doable in principle, my endeavour here is to find out if it's practically applicable in a game like that (and see what size is manageable). [...]

In fact such or similar techniques have been employed in the hardware industry for a long time (> a decade for sure, maybe two). However, there's always the problem of state-space explosion. And putting timing into the equation makes it considerably worse. I know of some attempts of formalizing timing (ie not just "a before b", but rather "a before b in such and such a margin of some atomic time") but to my knowledge that's nothing like mainstream, yet...

[tjohnman]

I use Javascript in my day job for website development, so you could say I've done "big" things with it. Löve is a game development framework for Lua.

I generally feel more comfortable using Java, C/C++, C#, Objective-C and such when the project is open-ended because the highly structured nature of the language forces me to follow certain patterns even if I don't know when I'm going to end up.

Temporal logic sure sounds like something interesting, but how would it translate in terms of gameplay, specifically?

[meisl]

I use Javascript in my day job for website development, so you could say I've done "big" things with it. Löve is a game development framework for Lua.

Yep, answers my question. Thanks.

I generally feel more comfortable using Java, C/C++, C#, Objective-C and such when the project is open-ended because the highly structured nature of the language forces me to follow certain patterns even if I don't know when I'm going to end up.

Ok, I'm getting an idea. "Highly structured nature" - is it static typing or classes? Or is it the combination of the two that makes it suitable for you? Then they're all in the C family, ie rather procedural, imperative. As opposed to functional. Is that also a a preference of yours?

Temporal logic sure sounds like something interesting, but how would it translate in terms of gameplay, specifically?

I'll have to think a bit more about how to best explain, you know. But I'll just try a start and hope that you'll tell me where I should go faster and where to add more detail.

Basically, it's about the verification part of the game, and the scoring. And it will allow for much improved feedback to the player. <- That's the tagline.

...

Well, right now I think it's better to open a separate issue for it :)

[tjohnman]

I feel very comfortable with static typing in particular. Classes are nice too.

[meisl]

Ok, I see. One last question on this (last one, promised): In your JS, have you found yourself writing excessive

if (typeof arg0 !== 'string') { throw ... }

...or, maybe, someone had to tell you that you're doing so was excessive?

---

Plz forgive me my curiosity. It's about gauging each other's prefs and habits. I, personally, value patterns (you mentioned them already). I do not, however, appreciate so much being forced. I know it's a trade-off. And when it comes to collaboration some "outside forces" can actually simplify things, I know that too.

[tjohnman]

I've never abused typeof. In fact, I rarely use it in Javascript. I like static typing, and when I need it or want it I use a statically typed language. When I work with a dynamically typed language I use a style that is consistent with that, I don't try to force the language to behave in a way it was not designed to behave.

[meisl]

Ok then. Thanks for your patience :)

[meisl]

Ay, too sorry. But I have to ask:

Which of the features of C++ are you explicitly refusing to use?

I mean just the first that come to your mind right away, and of which you can honestly say that you know - and can explain - why they must be avoided. If there aren't any such then that's fine, too. Plz just be honest and straight.

[tjohnman]

I'm not sure I understand. I'm all right with any and all of C++. I'm not saying that I'm aware of everything it has to offer, but I don't feel there's anything there that I would refuse to use.

[meisl]

Ok fine, thanks.

[meisl]

Feel free to re-open and ask any general questions that you might have about me or my way of approaching things (in case they're not worth a separate issue).