Future of WebApps, Web and Android, and other philisophical issues

[tobykurien]

Moving the discussion from #249 into a new issue:

Unfortunately the bad news is that I will probably stop supporting this app this year, despite this app being a labour of love and one I'm proud of. The sandbox leaks mentioned in the README, combined with browser fingerprinting, supercookies, FLoC, and other hostile abuses of Web technology, have made me come to the conclusion that the Web is a lost cause for private browsing. Yes, WebApps offers only limited protection, and that protection will probably decrease every year. Something like Gemini (https://gemini.circumlunar.space/docs/faq.gmi) is probably the way forward for privacy minded geeks, and I for one am moving as much of my content creation/consumption there as possible.

Another factor is that Android is also increasingly hostile to the developer (you need at least 16Gb RAM to compile a 3Mb APK, every year devs are forced onto new APIs, Gradle builds break often, Google now wants your developer signing key, the tooling I had used is now deprecated, etc, etc, etc). Couple that with the spyware preloaded onto phones and the increasing difficulty of getting control over your device (e.g. my phone kills VLC after 30 mins and there's nothing I can do about it), and I'm ready to ditch Android and go back to good 'ol desktop computing (https://tobykurien.com/post-1618319359/).

[tobykurien]

@rustforfuture said:

Sorry for off topic and you probably know but did you tried dontkillmyapps.com? It solved most of my problems.

Yep I know about it and it didn't help, because this is something the manufacturer put into the kernel. Every new device I buy has similar problems of killing apps and services, and each time the hoops I have to jump through get worse or more obscure, or in my current case, impossible.

Also sorry again for off topic, but so you as a veteran android dev, think i as a completely noob and newbie shouldn't start android learning if i also can't upgrade my PC much or other problems you mentioned?

I wouldn't say you shouldn't start learning Android dev, but you should probably know what you're getting yourself into. Everything you learn today will be obsolete in a few years, and so will your hardware. Google is also generally hostile towards developers, just have a look at the /r/androiddev subreddit: https://libredd.it/r/androiddev/search?q=suspended&restrict_sr=on&sort=relevance&t=all - accounts are automatically suspended/deleted for no reason and there's no recourse. This is detrimental if your livelihood depends on it.

The web, in contrast, has none of these issues.

What about flutter? Or kotlin?

Flutter and Kotlin just proves the point about how everything is obsolete every few years when newer/shinier things come along. And Flutter needs even more resources as it is built on top of the already bloated SDK. Maintaining an app beyond a year or two is a nightmare because of how things used to be done, vs how they are done now, vs what will be mandated by Play store at the end of the year.

Thank you very much for all your great efforts and time and health you put in your apps.

Thanks, I put in the effort only because I myself rely on the app for my own needs. Or at least I did, until a month ago when I ditched my smartphone for a dumbphone.

[0xRustlang]

@rustforfuture said:

Sorry for off topic and you probably know but did you tried dontkillmyapps.com? It solved most of my problems.

Yep I know about it and it didn't help, because this is something the manufacturer put into the kernel. Every new device I buy has similar problems of killing apps and services, and each time the hoops I have to jump through get worse or more obscure, or in my current case, impossible.

Also sorry again for off topic, but so you as a veteran android dev, think i as a completely noob and newbie shouldn't start android learning if i also can't upgrade my PC much or other problems you mentioned?

I wouldn't say you shouldn't start learning Android dev, but you should probably know what you're getting yourself into. Everything you learn today will be obsolete in a few years, and so will your hardware. Google is also generally hostile towards developers, just have a look at the /r/androiddev subreddit: https://libredd.it/r/androiddev/search?q=suspended&restrict_sr=on&sort=relevance&t=all - accounts are automatically suspended/deleted for no reason and there's no recourse. This is detrimental if your livelihood depends on it.

The web, in contrast, has none of these issues.

What about flutter? Or kotlin?

Flutter and Kotlin just proves the point about how everything is obsolete every few years when newer/shinier things come along. And Flutter needs even more resources as it is built on top of the already bloated SDK. Maintaining an app beyond a year or two is a nightmare because of how things used to be done, vs how they are done now, vs what will be mandated by Play store at the end of the year.

Thank you very much for all your great efforts and time and health you put in your apps.

Thanks, I put in the effort only because I myself rely on the app for my own needs. Or at least I did, until a month ago when I ditched my smartphone for a dumbphone.

Thank you very much for very informative and kind reply to my off topic questions.

I hope you stay safe, healthy and good luck with your future :)

[TheThunderspy]

I'm sad that your app is aproaching EoL, what alternatives do you recomend for moving now....? Thank you for your support.

[tobykurien]

If I had to make a recommendation, probably Firefox for Android with NoScript or uBlock Origin addon or similar, though I haven't used Firefox on Android in a few years. Firefox (at least on desktop, maybe on Android too) has mitigations for many of the problems I described above.

[WPFilmmaker]

@tobykurien Thank you for the hard work you put in WebApps, I hope you will change your mind and the project won't die.

You are right that big companies do everything to make development hard (sites as well, they always recommend you to download their app instead of using the browser etc.). But us users have just devs like you who spend their time to help people's privacy. Android is tied to Google and it sucks privacy wise, but what's the alternative?Apple?

Yes there are dumbphones but in an interconnected world smartphones are becoming essential (even in poorer countries many don't have a pc but have a smartphone).

I would look into postmarketos if you are interested in developing FLOSS apps. Linux is slowly entering the smartphone (postmarket os want to support devices for 10 years!) and I hope it will succeed (but more apps will be needed).

[tobykurien]

@WPFilmmaker thanks for the kind words. Indeed, I'll keep developing solutions and I am interested in developing FLOSS apps. I am keeping an eye on PinePhone and postmarketos for sure. I jumped into FirefoxOS back in the day and was devastated when they discontinued it. De-googled Android was fine for me until all the app killing (and other) shenanigans. I hope that instead of corporation controlled smartphones, the future will have more open and fully fledged devices for even poorer countries to use, preferably a full computer rather than the locked-down consumption-only devices of today.

My current "mobile computing" solution is a Raspberry Pi tablet in a couple of form factors that I built (see https://github.com/tobykurien/rpi_tablet_os ). Yes I know about CutiePi and all the other Pi projects out there, I keep a keen eye on them. When a Pi with power management becomes available, I hope that will be a game changer, but for now, this device gives me everything I need without any spyware or walled gardens. Sure, I need to boot it up and shut it down each time I use it, but that little friction helps prevent me reaching for it too often (which was a major reason I ditched the smartphone). This is a full mobile computer running desktop Linux that I can have today :)

[ChristianTacke]

I really, fully understand your concerns and issues with the way things are currently moving forward. My current Android device is LinageOS based without any google play components (which means that some corporation / commercial apps do not work–so be it). Firefox on the PC has "Containers" (or whatever it's called today). That's missing from Firefox for Android. uBlock Origin seems to be available. Haven't yet tried it (will soon).

So that's where WebApps comes into the thing: I consider it like multiple instances of a "minimalistic just works" browser. I don't expect too much privacy features inside each "instance". I just expect that one instance doesn't see the other instances. The minimal uBlock-Origin like feature is a well received feature addon!

If Firefox for Android gains Container support, switching away from Webapps will be much easier. But until then, I would like to continue using Webapps!

[chill10n]

yes its really bad concerning privacy. firefox is a leader in decline of standard here i think. as the market shares of other browsers (from the two biggest data krakens) rise, its decline seems only to be slowed down, probably also due to the fact that firefox to today has not implemented a nice miracast feature, where firefox loses its purpose with media oriented customers. i think they get money to lack that feature. fx_cast a chromecast project for firefox is no longer even be found at the firefox plugins and trying to have a firefox in your own flavour by about:config or settings is on mobile devices now a worthless effort. i am really frustrated. i guess the best way to go is just to get a new non-custom rom for your mobiles and fck google off where it belongs to --> graveyard.

[WittyNameHere]

I just learned of this app today, and wanted to say it fills an important role in being an app that streams HTTP video to devices like the Chromecast without the advertisements and closed source that a dozen apps in the Play Store do.

As someone not particularly aware/interested in web privacy but just trying to watch local news on the TV off the web, a FOSS web-to-Chromecast app is a useful resource. Sad it was deprecated.

[poiNt3D]

I have found this program just a week ago. This is just what i need! Modern life is so frustrating: app for this, app for that. I even had been denied of receiving a delivery package, all because i hadn't have their stupid QR code, although i had my id and the tracking number. All it comes to who can grab the most data on your phone. Calculator that requires access to internet, delivery app needs to read your contacts! And a browser is not a solution, every site can see where you've been. I will not allow this. Let them know only what they need to know.

[Taratect]

What is the condition of this browser? Sadly, I found out bout this browser recently and really liked the concept.

I wanna know if the app is still in working condition and are there any security concerns or bugs in general. I have some food delivery service or other miscellaneous stuff I would love to separate from my browser activity. I'm aware that it's not a complete sandbox but ig something is better than nothing. I wanna use the app for that purpose. But I'm worried bout the security and safety since the project is not maintained as I'll have payment info stored on those services. So is it still safe to make transaction on this app?

[tobykurien]

It should still be functional, some of my family members still use it. There aren't any glaring security issues I am aware of and the sandboxing should still work, although I can't guarantee that changes to system WebView or Android versions haven't changed/broken things.

On Wed, 2023-05-24 at 04:19 -0700, Taratect wrote:

What is the condition of this browser? Sadly, I found out bout this browser recently and really liked the concept.

I wanna know if the app is still in working condition and are there any security concerns or bugs in general. I have some food delivery service or other miscellaneous stuff I would love to separate from my browser activity. I'm aware that it's not a complete sandbox but ig something is better than nothing. I wanna use the app for that purpose. But I'm worried bout the security and safety since the project is not maintained as I'll have payment info stored on those services. So is it still safe to make transaction on this app?

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[marcdw1289]

I still make heavy use of this app on my devices. Along with up-to-date Mulch WebView I always feel confident using it for a lot of my needs.

I usually recommend folks try it out if I feel it may fit a use case.

[Remigrator]

I use your app all the time and it has always served me well. I can't imagine my life without it. Not even kidding!