General design / building discussion

tshort commented 7 years ago

goes here...

tim-tx commented 6 years ago

Is there a way, with the current parameterization, to shift the vertically-staggered columns outward for ncol > 4? It seems if I set the number of columns to 7, I get two columns outside of the pinky and one column inside of the index finger, but I'd like it to be the other way around, two near index and one near the pinky. I couldn't figure this out after looking over the code once or twice.

tshort commented 6 years ago

Allowing more inward columns is a good idea, @tim-tx. Pointer-finger keys are much nicer than yet more pinky keys.

The current code does not provide a way to do this. It'll take some tweaks to incorporate this feature. I'm not sure how many places in the code this would touch.

tim-tx commented 6 years ago

https://github.com/tim-tx/dactyl-keyboard/blob/8b95c6990a6405c8c837e65bbbd5e87b71d93371/things/right-5x7-shifted.stl For now I fudged on the thumb offset, but I added a shift parameter that moves the two z-offset columns and the thumb cluster outward. I also lowered the cluster a little, there was a corner sticking way up after changing the tenting and doing the shift. Do you see any problems with printing this, or with usability of the new geometry?

tshort commented 6 years ago

That's awesome, @tim-tx! 👍

I don't see any problems with printing this. Usability looks fine, too. I might try to reduce the overall height as much as you can. As it is, the keyboard is rather tall, so I tried to cut down on the height as much as possible (it shaves a bit off the printing, too).

I also like your code changes. If the code still results in the same model with your new offset zeroed out, please consider a PR to my original branch.

tshort commented 6 years ago

If you print this, please let me know how it turns out. I might try printing one to make as a giveaway.

As you're probably expecting, the QMK firmware will need some work to handle the extra keys.

bcm0 commented 6 years ago

What keycaps do you use? They look very nice.

tshort commented 6 years ago

Signature Plastics G20's:

https://pimpmykeyboard.com/g20-blank-keycap-sets/

They are especially nice for the thumb keys on this keyboard because of the angles.

bcm0 commented 6 years ago

Thank you very much!

r2d2rogers commented 6 years ago

I am currently bending diodes on the second half of a 5x6 set. Thank you for sharing your things files. I have the first half running on a barely modified Nyquist qmk keymap. Would you mind if I submitted a config for this board to the main qmk repo?

tshort commented 6 years ago

Sure. I don't think they accept configs into their main keyboards directory for DIY-type boards. I thought they had another location for that, but I couldn't find it with a quick glance. Found it: I think it needs to go under keyboards/handwired.

r2d2rogers commented 6 years ago

I'm using my 5x6 dactyl manuform now. I have the halves working over I2C and am working up the config for the QMK handwired directory. Thank you for sharing your efforts and making it possible!

twistedsanity commented 6 years ago

I have an issue getting my kailh red fitting. It seems the hole is correct but I need the little tabs on the other sides. Any advice or easy way to change this? Or are they designed to provide the friction fit and I file them to size?

tshort commented 6 years ago

@twistedsanity, that's too bad. One of the things I've liked about Matt's original design is how nicely the keys fit. You could try modifying the dimensions/positions of the holes:

https://github.com/tshort/dactyl-keyboard/blob/master/src/dactyl_keyboard/dactyl.clj#L76-L90

It might be tricky. You'd probably want to print some test objects with just one key hole.

twistedsanity commented 6 years ago

Your right the keys fit perfectly for the square but the nubs just don't work with mine, editing the code is a first for me, but I will give it a go. Thank you for your help.

r2d2rogers commented 6 years ago

I have a set of the 4x5 printed from the things directory, but the key holes seem small, for mx, or kailh either one. The 5x6 fit so well that I'm confused, was that size adjusted for different switches, or did the print go awry?

tshort commented 6 years ago

I suspect a print issue. Nothing was changed. The 4x5 was my starting point.

ketkar commented 6 years ago

Are those thumb cluster key caps 1.5u?

Also, what material did you print with?

tshort commented 6 years ago

Yes, the two main thumb keys are 1.5u. I printed with PLA.

DurekuRyuu commented 6 years ago

I cannot find a genuine Arduino Pro-Micro, where would you recommend finding one or what would you recommend for alternatives? Do you know why the pre-generated models are full of holes in their manifolds and where i might find ones without holes? I have been unable to get clojure and leningen working so i cannot generate my own. I am specifically looking to print a pair of 6x6's to build for work.

tshort commented 6 years ago

Mine weren't "genuine Arduino". They were a generic clone. I think I used the "KOOKYE 3PCS Pro Micro ATmega32U4" from Amazon.

I remember some 3d printer software complaining about non-manifold issues, but others are fine. I'm not sure what the issue is. What software are you using to print?

bcm0 commented 6 years ago

Do you use something like special keycaps on the home row to find the correct typing position? I can't find the position without taking a look.

DurekuRyuu commented 6 years ago

@tshort I'm using Slic3r Prusa edition, and the model is visibly full of holes, attempting to slice it does not produce a viable model. Also, would the firmware work with the normal arduino micro? I would like to buy genuine parts for my keyboard.

matt1003 commented 6 years ago

@DurekuRyuu, I have has similar issues slicing the original dactyl-keyboard with the Slic3r Prusa edition. In the end I gave up and used a different slicer. https://ultimaker.com/en/products/ultimaker-cura-software

As for the firmware, it should work fine with both the genuine pro-micro and generic clones.

DurekuRyuu commented 6 years ago

@matt1003, Excellent, i would have tried that, but really liked the features of Slic3r Prusa edition, so I downloaded an Autodesk Netfab trial and ran it through the repair function. This ended up repairing the part to the degree necessary to run it through Slic3r Prusa edition.

I'm glad that the firmware should work on both generic and genuine boards. Thank you for your help.

blakedietz commented 6 years ago

Re https://github.com/tshort/dactyl-keyboard/issues/2#issuecomment-358963634, I had some pretty poor results with switch hole sizing. Cherry MX form factors didn't fit at all. The switch holes were about 2mm too small both in width and height.

The left hand side was printed with a Prusa mk3 i3. Are there any tips as to improving print fidelity?

tshort commented 6 years ago

I've had good luck with upside-down prints. For me, that helped prevent curl-up on the walls, but it might also help with keyhole sizing.

fi0 commented 6 years ago

how much infill % should I use for PLA printing?

DurekuRyuu commented 6 years ago

@fi0 15% works fine, as long as you have internal support with your slicing program even 5% or no support should be fine. I've printed 1 6x6 in PLA and one in PETG and I highly recommend PETG over PLA, but PLA will still work well. @tshort Why not use brims? i used 5mm ones and they worked great. I was printing on PEI though, so i may have different results.

tshort commented 6 years ago

I'm pretty new to 3D printing. I tried a brim on a Makerbot, but the sides still turned up. It doesn't have a heated bed. My makerspace also has printers with heated beds, but I had problems with clogging on them, so I never had a successful print.

tomarrell commented 6 years ago

Quick question, from what the usage is here my intuition says I should be able to swap the Rj9 out for a 3.5mm TRRS cable instead. Is there anything that might not be possible there? Also very good write up and wiring diagrams, thanks heaps for those!

yayugu commented 6 years ago

https://github.com/tshort/dactyl-keyboard/blob/master/4x6.patch#L18

It seems less tenting when ncols >= 6. I love tenting and any problem using (def centercol 3) with more pinkie keys?

tshort commented 6 years ago

More tenting should be fine, but it'll use a lot more material when printing.

yayugu commented 6 years ago

Thank you! I'll try to make more tending cases.

arqubusier commented 6 years ago

Hi, thanks for the work on this keyboard! I did a test print today and was very impressed by the ergonomics of the design.

I just had one question regarding the build. The position of the ports in the most recent stl files seem switched compared to the pictures in the wiring guide. It looks like the female rj9 has a snug fit, but the port for usb is further away from the controller. Is the new design intended to be used with a connector breakout board (if so which type), or is the intention just to route the usb cable through the hole and connect it directly to the controller?

tshort commented 6 years ago

Yes, @arqubusier, the port positions have changed, and the hole you inquired about is for a USB breakout. In the original design, the main micro USB cable plugged directly into the Pro Micro board. That was a major weakness--I've had a couple of failures because the stress on the USB cable broke off the USB connection on the Pro Micro. I'm still using the v0 keyboard, so I'll probably have to do another build when the Pro Micro breaks again (right now, I avoid unplugging it at that end).

This is the USB connector I used. It's full sized.

I should update the main page.

yayugu commented 6 years ago

It is a perfect solution that makes isolated usb port. It also the RJ9 cable and USB cable intersecting.

However, if you are currently using Pro Micro's port. There are several ways to avoid broke offs.

Strengthen the termainal with Epoxy glue http://ascii.jp/elem/000/001/613/1613057/index-4.html

https://www.amazon.com/J-B-Weld-8265S-Cold-Weld-Reinforced/dp/B0006O1ICE/

Use MagSafe style cable https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Elough-e04-usb-huawei-android-usb/32843603358.html

arqubusier commented 6 years ago

Thanks for the response!

@tshort, ahh I see. Normally, I think one would use a type A to a type B cable for a peripheral device. According to wikipedia, an A to A connector is non-standard, to avoid users accidentally connecting two hosts together. Nevertheless, since you can still get A-A Cables, and the female usb A port is small yet sturdy and easy to incorporate into the design, I agree that it is a reasonable trade-off to use such a port in this case (since its not a commercial product).

@yayugu, thanks for the info! That will come in handy in my future projects.

fi0 commented 6 years ago

Is it possible to smooth out the sharp edges / corners? Not sure if this makes sense though.

tshort commented 6 years ago

Out of the box, there's no option for smoothing. It's possible, though. The original Dactyl is smooth. There are several google results for smoothing in OpenSCAD. It's not a high priority for me, but I'd be happy to take a pull request that implemented it.

fi0 commented 6 years ago

https://imgur.com/a/KwaEi The bottom keycap hits the case when it's bottomed out. How should I edit this?

fi0 commented 6 years ago

How to wire the USB connector to the pro micro?

tshort commented 6 years ago

@fi0, what keycaps are you using? With the G20 keycaps, that is a tight fit. This should be changed to give a bit more room, though. It can be fixed by editing the positions of thumb-tl-place (tl for top left on the right-hand model) and/or thumb-mr-place (middle right).

Here's the line for changing the position of tl:

https://github.com/tshort/dactyl-keyboard/blob/7b26338842899833d0da75a9b0e75466d0553af5/src/dactyl_keyboard/dactyl.clj#L316

(I wouldn't touch the angles of tl.)

For mr, it's possible to tweak the angles and/or position:

https://github.com/tshort/dactyl-keyboard/blob/7b26338842899833d0da75a9b0e75466d0553af5/src/dactyl_keyboard/dactyl.clj#L319-L323

On your question on USB connector, I'd probably use a breakout board for the micro-USB port of the Pro Micro and use that. I haven't gotten that far.

fi0 commented 6 years ago

@tshort I was using XDA keycaps.

Answer my question, for connecting the micro usb breakout to the pro micro, https://sgotti.me/post/atreus-keyboard-build-log/

fi0 commented 6 years ago

Just found this on /r/mechmarket, it looks like he's having the same issue for thumb cluster. https://imgur.com/gallery/XktwS

fi0 commented 6 years ago

@DurekuRyuu what're the benefits of using PETG? I've printed one in PLA but I want to print a smoother one and then sand it and spray it with primer.

fi0 commented 6 years ago

@tshort for fixing the thumb cluster, do you think we can change it to

    (def thumb-post-bl (translate [(+ (/ mount-width -2) post-adj) (+ (/mount-height -1.5) post-adj) 0] web-post))
(def thumb-post-br (translate [(- (/ mount-width 2) post-adj)  (+ (/mount-height -1.5) post-adj) 0] web-post))

from -1.15 But, we'll also need to change larger plate too.

wirlybird commented 6 years ago

Hi all, getting ready to print the 5X6 version. Going to be using PETG. What orientation did you print in? Printing with the cavity facing down looks like a support nightmare! Won't be able to load into the slicer until this evening to take an actual look! Thanks for any tips!

DurekuRyuu commented 6 years ago

Print in the standard orientation, downside down, embrace the support nightmare. Reason, you will touch the top/outside of the print, so let the inside be a support nightmare. As long as you use a good slicer, Prusa Slic3r is good, the supports shouldn't be an issue. Ideally one would use soluble support or support interface. If you dont use soluble support you will lose ~50% of the pegs on the underside. Print at high temps and low speeds for nice quality. Run the STL through netfabb to ensure no holes in the manifold. Post pictures on r/MechanicalKeyboards for karma. ??? Profit?

wirlybird commented 6 years ago

Thanks for the info. I planned to run it through Netfabb. Thanks for the tip on the pegs. I'll watch for that.

I am going to look it over in Slic3r PE and in S3D.

Will try to remember to post a pic!

Nebukadneza commented 5 years ago

Yoho,

i just successfully printed a 5x7 version with a very cheap home-printer, the CR-10 and a E3D Hotend with 0.4mm nozzle, and el cheapo black PLA (»OWL-Filament«). As it took me quite a while to figure out the exact settings, and i had 3 essentially failed prints, i wanted to let everyone know what did the trick for me (although your printer might be different).

I’m slicing with S3D, and roughly:

0.215mm layer height (better bonding, rough outside, but sturdier for removing the supports)
top solid: 6 layers, bot solid: 4 layers, shells: 2
35% rectilinear infill with 125% width
28% auto-generated supports, from build-plate only, 43° max angle, 0.85mm horizontal offset, upper separation: 2 layers (here, it was critical for me to get the right support infill percent where the „islands“ would stick nicely, but that’s removable without destroying the print)
206°C print, 60°C bed temp, but that’s hotend/filament specific. I chose to go ~5°C higher than usually with this filament to get better layer bonding, thus increasing strength for removing supports.
55mm/s base-speed, 66% outline underspeed, 75% solid underspeed, 75% support underspeed

I hope these help some others with rough starting-points for successful prints. If possible, try lower support densities first, and err on the higher support-separation-side rather than too dense/close.

Here are some images of the print. Not super nice, but functional, and with snap-in keys ^_^.

img_20180707_155521 img_20180707_155512 img_20180707_155504

Thanks for this GREAT dactyl fork! Looking forward to reduced wrist/finger pain, thanks to everyone here ^_^.

Best, -Dario

tshort / dactyl-keyboard

General design / building discussion #2