[Kickstarter Discussion] What are our limitations

[Sullos]

Hey there Tsuna, I'm opening this thread for your help and also input from others on how the Kickstarter backer ships should work.

Starting at the Explorer Rank:

• Build a 20m civilian shuttle

You mentioned in the building guide that these shuttles can now be 30m I think most people are accepting of the fact that civilian shuttles don't really need weapons on them.

Entrepreneur Rank:

• Build a 100m civilian ship
• Build a 20m civilian shuttle

Here is where I believe there starts to be a problem. Whilst we don't know what the game will be like once its got survival mechanics, there seems to be questions regarding what sort of things our civilian ships could be, and if we can have weapons on them. As it stands a 100m ship is a big prize if attacked by pirates, or other players, especially if they don't have weapons. The way I picture it is that if I build my 100m ship it will just a ship floating around in the game that's easy to attack, loot, and destroy if it has no weapons.

I propose a general rule could be put in place saying that if you want your ship to have weapons on it, it is limited to 1 small-medium sized weapon per 50m. This means that some civilian ships can have a very basic 'defense' arsenal on board to prevent raiding. In terms of progression, a new player with a very minimal ship coming across a big civilian ship, just being able to fly up to it and take it over, seems very far jumping in progression standards.

Next up is what sort of themes we can have about or ships. Are we allowed to create a generalized look and feel to our ships? If I create a 30m shuttle and a 100m ship, can they be similar in their style so that they look like they could be produced by the same manufacturer or possibly be from a corporation? Or should we be making them look more generalized? What sort of stuff are you after? :)

The future ranks don't quite play into account yet, as pirate ships and corporate stations etc need more work. But similar questions will apply to them, like weapon limitations and other such things.

Also, I think there might be a problem with the 2nd step. Asking for us to put our Steam key here. If I had the ability to create 4 ships for the game and I only post one with my verification key, what stops someone else from taking the key and trying to get a ship added to the game using my key. I suggest perhaps making the Post include everything else, and then do a confirmation privately either through discord messaging or an email.

Thanks Tsuna, hope I haven't scared you off with this essay.

[tsunamayo]

No pb it is expected to have questions ;) So for the key: once I see the first post then I would expect all subsequent submission to come from the same account. I would like to avoid mail, it will be real pain to deal with honestly - but in case like that if somebody try to steal a spot then yes we will resort to mail checking. It feels weird to copy/paste your key, but when you think about it that should work, game is already activated to so problemo. For civilian ship, I am still not sure. I would like to have a lot of civilian ship around, and sometime having the player defend one under attack. I wanted safe area of the galaxy, with a police or military presence, and the "outer rim", more lawless with a higher probability of being attacked. But in that case my preferred solution would be spawn a convoy: the civilian transport (for example), and then a small escort of mercenary to defend it. If a player attack a civilian ship ideally I want them to get busted by local police...

I think we will get enough turrets on pirate and factions. I would prefer civilian to look more civilian;) But again we might need to change that if that doesnt work gameplay wise.

[ZachZent]

In Sci-fi many civi ships have a small weapons array. A small turret to blast asteroids for example or a lone rogue fighter. Plus with a small amount of weapons, ships could theatrically defend themselves before running away so that they aren't super the super easy targets. If current civi ships have no weapons and since I don't believe AI ships can run away just yet, it basically means automatic death from any ship.

And there is also the cinematic argument :D Small cargo ship futually trying to defend itself against two pirate raiders when you arrive to save the day!

[Garrett-C]

Arguably civilian ships could just generate with like a 1 fighter escort or something. But I think tsuna has a point that with the inclusion of some form of space police it's not a major issue. I mean sure a new player could easily attack a civilian ship but I doubt that they could handle the space police.

It also adds to it by making the act of attacking a civilian ship a time trial. You have to manage to defeat/capture it and get away before the space police show up and overwhelm you.

[FelixGold]

I have a question regarding my planned ship: I wanted my shuttle to have folding wings for landing and storage, should I try to keep it 30m folded or unfolded? Examples included (This is a test to make sure it even worked, not an example of the finished product xD)

[tsunamayo]

So I prefer to have no turret / weapon on the civilian. So that the player with a small ship can defend a big 100m ship attacked by a small pirate for example. Btw I will open a build contest to make Space Police so I can work on that... also @FelixGold sorry it must be unfolded, otherwise that would be too complex and it could be exploitable in the game as Shipyard tier have some gameplay implications. Thanks for your understanding!

[tsunamayo]

@Sullos Okay and what about asking player to give at least the full civilian version, plus a light defense one I could spawn in higher danger region of the galaxy if they want? That would work for me. Not perfect for people wanting to integrate their weapon design 100% into it, but that fits what I would need...

[Garrett-C]

It sounds like a pretty good gameplay element to have. I mean getting hailed from a civilian ship and being offered something if you escort them or save them from some pirates sounds good. It’s a natural encounter that syncs in nicely. It also adds an extra level of difference between civilian ships and non civilian ships.

Having an unarmed and a lightly armed one could be a good compromise as well yet again it adds more variety and depth which is always a positive.

[ZachZent]

Someone I believe in the Discord suggestion that civi ships under 20m have no weapons at all. Above that would be one small brick turret to say 50m. When you get to the larger sizes, the more valuable ships, you get larger/more numbers weapons arrays. Of course this would still be much less than a similarly sized combat ship.

[Garrett-C]

I don't know Zack I feel like the 1 light armed 1 unarmed would work better. It would add a nice bit of easy variation. Plus it could make it easier to generate a small fleet/convoy of them without it looking to repetative.

[ZachZent]

I do like the idea of variety, but that was more of a general guideline for those building their ships to be added. At least initially.

(And who is this Zack? I'm Zach)

[Garrett-C]

I mean I would imagine that having an unarmed version and then an optional lightly armed version would keep everyone happy. I sort of see what you are saying Zack but I think that the gun size scaling with ship size is actually more confusing than benefitial. Now it does sort of mean that there will be an extra level of moderation to the armed civilian ships to make sure that the level of lightly armed is somewhat consistent but that layer of moderation is needed anyway and would probably be ever harder again the more detailed you make the requirements.

[ZachZent]

No no, not the gun size. The quantity of weapons. However the variation will probably be the best option. Maybe not right away, but soon

[Garrett-C]

I mean it's probably best just to fix it again and define what exactly "lightly" armed means. From there it's pretty easy. You don't have to worry about added layers like size. Plus it means backers get a chance to put double the number of civ ships in technically (granted its not really double because it's the same ship twice but shhh) so I think it would keep most people happy.

[tsunamayo]

What the game need is a weapon score. I want to add score for every system in the ship, a balanced and average ship would be 100% everywhere (still quite subjective). Then if you decide to make a weapon heavy design, you get a score of 200%, it means you have to have lower under-average score elsewhere. So that when you look at a ship score card you can instantly how it plays. I will require me working on a few "average" ship to balance the values.

[Sullos]

I love the idea of a ship Averaging score. it makes perfect sense and can help people in survival see if they stand a chance against an enemy ship. A sort of 'ship level' system.

As to the two variations suggestion, I think that solves the problem perfectly as well. If people can submit at least 2 versions, one with light weapons on them, and one without, it gives you much greater flexibility in how you want them to appear in the game, and in a survival scenario, it means people won't always rush into a fight, as who knows which variation it will be, an armed ship or an easy target. I know this could be seen as more work for you, but having the people supply 2 or 3 versions of ships, to add greater variation to the game makes sense to me.