[Suggestion] Scanning, Stealth Gameplay

[ZachZent]

First and foremost, NO VISUAL CLOAKING!!! Anything at a distance is very small and extremely easy to miss. Even with trails it is hard to see. Visual cloaking would just be an unnecessary feature and easily exploitable. Anyway, on to the idea.

Scanning needs to have a really comprehensible system, something that everyone can understand as someone who doesn’t understand how scanning works will be at a decisive disadvantage. For this in my opinion, the best option is a numbers game.

*Note: these values are not balanced to the game as the energy systems are buggy and not finalized. The distance is also generalized and the numbers are being discussed in the Discord

Audio explanation of the picture: https://youtu.be/JeeWv8U8_K8

The scanning range is separated into three zones. The first zone is close to the ship. Any ship regardless of their energy output will be detected. This zone would be close enough that a stealth ship would be able to get in close and attack before the target can react, but not close enough that ships can basically get right next to a target. The second zone is much larger than the first. The numbers are variable, but the further away you get from the ship, the more energy a ship would have to output to be detected. The third zone extends from the end of the second zone to the rest of the system. This detection range is quite high so only the largest ships and stations will be detected.

If a ship has a higher energy output then the range value, they will be detected. If a ship has a lower energy output then the range value, then they will be hidden. On the picture above, a ship is let's say 20km away from the ship where the detection range value is 6,000 KW. If the ship has an output of 6,000 KW or above, they will be detected. If it has an output less than 6,000 KW, it will remain hidden.

The scanner itself would be a block you place, one that MUST be on the outside of the ship. A block that if destroyed would blind the ship (minus visual contact.) A combat tactic that can use the stealth game play mechanics to the fullest. The scanning block would come in two forms. A brick and a block scanner. Both would be scalable like the blocks/bricks we have now. The larger you make your scanner, the longer the range it would have though at the cost of requiring more power and being more vulnerable to attack. The system suggested is set up to be easy to change the values and balance. There are other options which has been discussed, but for brevity sake this is the one I will go with as it is the simplest option of them.

This suggestion would work well in the game as it meshes with the rest of the game’s systems without adding too much on top of it. It also makes it so that larger ships can’t hide away without shutting down basically their entire ship and smaller ships get a bit closer without immediately being targeted and destroyed. Stealth ships won’t be able to get right next to the enemy and instantly be able to attack. It has to manage their power to do so. A combination of smart and simple.

*Disclaimer: this is about ship detection. The resource detection idea is much more simple and can be explained separately if requested, but in short it works with simple detection of objects/zones at different distances revealing information.

[OverSavior]

What would also be cool is to make different kinds of scanners. For example one that searches for power, one that focuses on heat and one for... well, something else. Each one would still search for all kinds of signals/radiation, but for specific one it would be more sensitive than others.

Another thing that would be cool to see are decoys. Thingies you can deploy to confuse your possible enemy. For example, this could be used to perform ambushes or simply to distract the enemy. Although, such decoys should certainly be expensive to produce so players won't spam them making the enemy think it's not one ship but a whole fleet.

[ZachZent]

Different type of scanners, no please. No need to over complicate a system, especially since the heat mechanic isn't linear to ship size. Not sure if radiation will be a thing nor would this supposed signals.

Decoys however, HELL YEAH!

[Dwarf-LordPangolin]

I really, really like this system.

I think it would work very well with the game. It's elegant because it doesn't require a complicated new mechanic, and just uses the existing mechanics in a way that's intuitive even to new players. It would allow for a stealth mechanic that would not be easy to abuse, since a ship's stealthiness would be directly tied to how powerful it was.

Plus, it would give players a reason to yell "shut everything down!" to avoid being detected by a big, scary ship, which I suspect is something that a lot of people would get a kick out of. ;)

I agree with Zach that only one type of scanner is needed or desirable, but I also agree that decoys of some sort would be awesome!

[Senakysam]

Not a fan of sensors needing to be on the outside of ships. Sounds like it would be aesthetically restricting.

And I don't think that heat showing up on sensors should be ruled out completely. Each of your zones could also have a Heat Detection Limit. If they sense a certain amount of heat above this limit in that zone, they ping it on the sensor. Once that heat drops below that limit, the disappear off the sensor again. This way, if you have a ship firing a large weapon from that distance, you can detect them. However, if they choose to use very small weapons, they can still remain stealthy.

[ProPeach]

To clarify, are you suggesting a system based on the energy drawn from a target ships power supply? ie, the amount of energy being used by a ship at any current time. I also think that a system based on heat will be more interesting. While counting energy output will relate to what systems the target ship is running, the heat mechanics of Skywanderers are much more fleshed out and create some other options. Heat can be dispersed by a well designed hull (and perhaps by radiators/ejected heat sinks in the future). Depending on the weapon system, weapons could be engineered to produce less heat at the cost of weapons.

In my opinion these additional factors to consider make heat produced by a ship a more engaging factor to track and base the detection system on.

[tsunamayo]

Interesting contribution indeed! I havent thought much about this at the moment, but I see already there is a few choice to arbitrate at one point:

1) heat vs enery vs hull size 2) one system vs several system. I am not against several system if it makes sense and is not too hard to understand with a clear starting solution, but I am not sure it would add depth at this stage. I expect to see big ship to have big termal output and big energy ouput altogether, so I am not sure it would add depth. Also I will need to add different scan for ressources, so it might be overkill indeed. I also wanted to add a tracking cam (as a block), so I seems too much to add several system atm. 3) Aestetic. I could make a rotating RADAR like, I now have the tech it cost nothing on the rendering side, 4) Require being outside or not: another things to consider like you pointed out. If I allow inside for the look of it some people might object than then they feel they have to build them inside as it would provide shielding... A lot of pros and cons to each choice...

Lets keep the discussion alive!

[ZachZent]

1. I chose to leave off the second half of the suggestion with heat instead of energy. The concept was the same though with heat there are more factors but the concept was the same. As for hull size, the benefit of this concept is that you don't need to account for hull size because it does by design. Larger ships will use more power and are more easily scanned. This also allows for larger ships to use stealth, but at the cost of powering down many if not all of their systems (engines, shields, weapons, etc.) which is a very large disadvantage so this tactic must be taken seriously. Just another way to balance small and large ships as I don't think anyone wants a large ship to be able to track any small ship at any range or "vanish" weapons armed and ready to one shot everything that doesn't see them.

Here is the full, original picture of heat and energy. Only the heat values are very much inaccurate as heat at the moment is a bit odd at the moment.

2. There will have to be several systems, that is inevitable. What I was more saying as for detecting ships, there shouldn't be multiple ways to do so. Say a heat scanning system and a energy scanning system at the same time. Two separate systems doing the same thing. For resources detection, I wanted to leave it out for sake of not droning on. My idea for that is similar to No Man's Sky. Scan something from a large distance away and you get general info. The closer you get the more data you get. Get right above the land or right next to the asteroid and you will get the most info. In my eyes, that would be automatic with a sensor on a ship. It is also not very developed :D

3. Hell yea!

4. Perhaps that part was a bit too presumptuous and has been discussed quite a bit in the Discord which is in the process of making an idea on how to make sure players have their engines on the outside rather then in the center of the ship while allowing for decoration. Where engines NEED to be outside of the ship, the choise to require sensors to be outside is a mixed bag. Outside is more gameplay oriented with destroying the sensor being a tactic. Inside works better with the aesthetics that players want (not everyone wants a spinning dish) and destroying the sensor would be too much of a disadvantage for the player. That conversation will continue.