Lawfah
commented
4 years ago I support this suggestion.
Open ExodistSKY1 opened 4 years ago
Lawfah
commented
4 years ago I support this suggestion.
FelixGold
commented
4 years ago For my part I would say the Range barrel should be the one adding range (As the name implies to keep from confusing people), and the recoil barrel should be the one that adds damage and heat to represent firing much larger bursts/shells/etc at a slower pace
Drillz007
commented
4 years ago very much against these suggested changes
The range suggested are to extreme 1k for block beams and 18k for ranged barrels thats is to vast of a difference rendering the lasers useless for anything other than smiting fighters with pinpoint hitscan accuracy which is the same distance that you suggest brick lasers to max at giving fighters the only option to come into battle head long with a larger ship and become eviscerated by a AI turret which im sure people would not enjoy
on the other side of issue is 18k range! that is so far you wont even be able to spot any ships before your turrets open fire on something a few pixels wide. there was a few tests done with range and size and something around 3-4 k max range was the sweet spot to have a ship be visually identifiable and also have some form of look to a battle that was not just lasers hitting you from empty space
here is an example of a 200m long and 20m tall object at 5k! granted its not a detailed ship but you would be hard pressed to notice it just by looking around
I also cant help but notice that your suggesting extremely long range combat but the links that you provided show combat around the distance i suggested or even closer in the case of the dogfight where those 2 ships could not have been even 100 meters apart the entire fight.
Personally i feel that combat should be more similar to "House of the Dying Sun" which is the other side of the spectrum combat would be much closer much more personal and risky high octane combat where you can see the effects of your damage and the pretty explosions of enemy ships
tsunamayo
commented
4 years ago First thanks for the detailed suggestion and taking time to test and write this! Before I do a more detailed answer, please try to understand my position:
What I am looking for is feedback. Suggestions without what did you tested and how it went are not useful to me. Everybody will be coming with different suggestions, I cant just delegate putting the number into the game... We can discuss on the numbers, but without me knowing your combat situation is will be counterproductive.
What I would like to see in a combat feedback:
Then some more remark: => weapons are just a part of the whole problem, and addons is even just a tiny part of it. => then we can discuss value, but just please keep in mind that I cant just delegate game balance and blindly follow what people tell me. I can and will follow most of what you said (except maybe range), the point was not "blindly" ;) => also was wondering if you guys are able to record easily. I think the best for me would be to have 5min shot of combat, so that it will makes things even more straight for me...
Also why are you suggesting to increase barrel length?
Cheers
ExodistSKY1
commented
4 years ago I completely understand your position, I will try to make a clip for each weapon system being used in a combat situation (PVP) and then also provide my reasoning in text for each of my suggestions.
I agree about the blindly following suggestions, I need to provide you better visual evidence supporting the recommendations suggested.
As far as range is concerned, I guess I went about that the wrong way or did not explain it well enough. The max range and addition to range is meant to relate to accuracy. I am pretty positive that most people even with 100% accuracy will not be able to efficiently engage targets at that distance but there might be a player who is really good at that, and others would have to counter, having the option to do this is nice. As opposed to having the spread on weapon systems leading to accuracy issues moving that to the AI I feel would be better for the players.
Yes, I have never recorded a game before but I will figure it out and make snippets of each to help better show what I am trying to propose.
The increase in barrel length is to help promote larger turrets. Most people will always try to max their damage in one way or another, with these longer barrels they will take up more space on larger ships meaning, for the most part, less turrets.
Also people like really big guns!
tsunamayo
commented
4 years ago @ExodistSKY1 I use OBS studio, it is free and works well. So for turret you just want longer turret, but same max overall effect (ie smaller step for each 1m added), or larger overall increase (each step gets same increase). I will do another proposition for addon, it is tricky, I think we need to have some kind of brainstorm first on how combat strategy (will) looks like.
ExodistSKY1
commented
4 years ago Thank you, ill look into that software.
I think making the barrels and weapons longer in general will lead to larger turrets used for larger ship to ship battles. with some small point defense and fighter defense turrets.
The idea for the longer barrels and weapons is because I feel it could get the same effect for larger turrets without having to add anything physically new to the game and work with the assets that are already in game.
Each step should get the same increase, except maybe Heat heat should be small at first and get larger with each scale? I think that seems good.
The effect should be greater than what we have currently, mainly referring to lasers.
I think combat strategy will come depending on the assets available and how weapon systems are balanced numbers wise.
My thoughts on this issue:
-Large turrets, (longer barrels and weapons) will mainly be used on larger ships for large vs large ship battles or station raids.
-large turrets should pack a punch have a good engagement distance but should be slow to reload, making them not very effective against smaller vessels except for lucky hits.
-Medium turrets would be the middle ground kinda good in all areas depending on how they are made but do not excel in either category
-small turrets mainly smaller ship and fighter deterrents, more than likely going to have a smaller range (2000m might seem far even with accurate weapons and people will freak out about it being over powered but if you fly your ship right you will be able to dodge a decent amount of the incoming fire, also taking into account both ships will be moving in 3d space) with high rate of fire weapons that do not deal as much damage
-very small defensive turrets against incoming missiles, possibly drones? very fast moving but lacks the power to take down anything fighter sized
I like the addon's as it will allow players to fine tune their weapons to their desired state, but wouldn't be required if they so choose to forgo placing them.
ExodistSKY1
commented
4 years ago @tsunamayo
The following videos show each brick weapon system extended to max with max barrels in a fighter vs fighter "Dogfight". The lack of accuracy is difficult to miss in both players and the weapon systems.
A thing I noticed that I feel is the most important part of these tests, is in the beginning everyone understood what they had to do and that it was testing a simple fighter catching another fighter off-guard/or getting in an advantageous position for firing to disable/destroy its opponent. By the end and even midway through everyone which started out with 5 other players including myself, wanted to go and build as opposed to shooting each other down. These videos were not fun and the lack of enthusiasm to push to block weapons showed this.
My idea on the range being "Far", which I do not believe to be the case, is mainly centered around accuracy and projectile speed. It was difficult to get rounds on target let alone deal a decisive blow with Fighter vs fighter, and 2 fighters vs a 25m ship.
I do like the combat from the game Drillz had posted. But that is not feasible unless you want to take out the creativity of building our own ships and put hard limits on maneuverability, etc.
People are worried about getting one sniped from 18km, that will not happen, first the Time to target is a lot higher and second both ships will be moving.
What is possible is giving extreme accuracy out to what appears to be extreme ranges and letting the players skill with piloting, aiming, and how they arm their ships be the deciding factor in the engagements. I understand AI will always be better than players if they have 100% accuracy, but possibly making the NPC crew and AI less accurate could solve both issues don't you think?
Gatling Brick https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mMZFntaiFy8
Beam Brick https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a3ZFVl3VUmM&feature=youtu.be
Cooling Brick https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UzKYZp7sZZI&feature=youtu.be
Range Brick https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9PdwsSsfeh0&feature=youtu.be
Recoil Brick https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exLK-LM1VkQ&feature=youtu.be
2 vs 1 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-0zActzoZts&feature=youtu.be
tsunamayo
commented
4 years ago @ExodistSKY1 Thanks for the videos! okay so indeed it seems that what you are trying to balance is dogfight: small fighter with no turrets. Which is not my focus atm as it is not with what I want to start balancing the game. The big picture is combat with bigger ships, mainly using turrets. Once this base case is somewhat balanced I will make smaller fighters fit it that picture - not the other way around. It is a method issue and also a bandwidth one... Thanks
ExodistSKY1
commented
4 years ago I will get you some videos based on the larger ship builds with turrets tomorrow.
What size ships would you like to have tested?
tsunamayo
commented
4 years ago Yes sorry I should have been more precise from the start, I think we can focus on 20-30m up to around 100m.
ExodistSKY1
commented
4 years ago Okay sounds good, we were supposed to test everything today including the larger ships, it took a long time to get everything pre set up, and everyone got bored and wanted to build buildings (I cant blame them) I have a 120m ship with a few turrets and we should have the rest of the sizes covered as well. we will hit each weapon system and barrel it might not be exactly tomorrow but I will get some work on it regardless
tsunamayo
commented
4 years ago okay sounds fantastique!
tsunamayo
commented
4 years ago @ExodistSKY1 also I think that beside balancing we need a small gimbal and a target lead - I will try to give you that asap. Also I will boost range.
Drillz007
commented
4 years ago Something that a few other games have is a lead indicator that could at least give a hint of where the enemy ship will be in a few seconds giving players a general area to shoot for this could be added when you lock onto an enemy ship so it would only give the indicator for the single craft you are focusing
tsunamayo
commented
4 years ago @Drillz007 yes thats exactly what I just said ;)
This would be much easier to show you in a multiplayer session as opposed to just giving situations that occurred during testing. I can be available whenever you get a little bit of time, not too much is needed.
First and foremost, I would like to make it clear that although I think small fighters should be viable I understand the fact that they excel in some areas and are weak in others. In a 1 vs 1 of a fighter and a 120m ship the 120m ship should win (dependent on its armament) but in a fighter group vs 1 if the fighter group is used correctly and tactfully, the fighter group, though some might get destroyed, have a greater chance of destroying the larger vessel.
This is not a new idea, but one that can be achieved through proper balancing of stats.
I would also like to say I am not basing my thoughts and opinions on movies or video games. Although I will be linking some video clips to help support my thoughts on the issues regarding weapons and combat.
When I picture fighters being useful against larger ships, I see them doing missile/gun runs on turret emplacements, exposed bridges, visible engines, and possibly open hangar bays, etc.
Dogfighting is something that a lot of people and I think yourself as well would love to see and get RIGHT. Maybe not scientifically accurate right but WW2/star wars right and that sounds fun to me!
Here are a few clips I have found, with timestamps, to help show how I think you would want and how I would hope the community would love and enjoy with Starship EVO in regards to space combat. (more people buying the game)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hle9yz5gylw 0:50-1:15, 1:25-3:08
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7A5TCZ7wvmE 1:11-2:36
TESTING: I do not recommend changing anything regarding heat/power on ships themselves but only changing and balancing via manipulating weapons/barrels I will give my thoughts for each barrel at the very end of the post.
Dogfights:
-BEAM: The only viable weapon system is the Beam weapon, saying that I think the only thing that should change could be a slight increase in its range. This weapon is viable as it adds little downtime and is very forgiving upon missing the intended target.
-GATLING BARREL: My next choice was the Gatling barrel as its name suggests a high rate of fire but possibly not the best damage but that is not what you should be looking for in a dogfight situation, you need a weapon system that is more forgiving with missed shots. To my dismay, the Gatling barrel is now a burst weapon with a 3-second cooldown... You could make it work, but no one will use it because it is inferior in every way to the beam. The accuracy is horrendous and you would need to be on top of the other fighter or even larger ship to get any kind of hits however ineffective they may be. This would never get used other than looking cool in builds.
-Lock-on missiles: they are not in the game yet but I am waiting! :)
Now on to the other barrels which I will not be putting on my fighters for dogfights (you can but it's unforgiving), but they are useful-ish on larger ships for turrets and fixed weapons.
-RECOIL BARREL: I love the look and visual effect this barrel has, but it doesn't add enough to be a viable option as most of the time ships are on the move and not static. Builders will opt for the range barrel, no difference in damage, firing rate, or much of anything else. All the other barrels offer much better buffs, the reduction in recoil is almost useless but if there was some relation to recoil and fire rate then it might make more sense. (think battleship guns)
-COOLING BARREL: Another barrel I love the effect of and it does help in situations where you might need a little bit more heat dissipation, it is a very selective use barrel.
-RANGE BARREL: This is the go-to for large turret emplacements and larger ships (excluding Beam weapons) This adds range and in a game such as this, that is fantastic!
I remember reading a few posts on Github, I tried looking for them but could not find them, which is also driving some of my thoughts on how to fix the lackluster stage that currently is combat.
-You had stated in one post that large ships will be using lots of turrets for defensive and offensive systems.
-In another post, you had stated that builders need to make larger turrets as opposed to a lot of them.
The systems how they currently are will lead to turret spamming to an unreasonable degree for larger ships.
The following are my thoughts on how to make every weapon system VIABLE, varied, and fun/appealing for builders to let their creativity flow!
Firstly, all stats should scale with barrel length as that will make sense, and its what players will expect. You don't have to use these exact numbers it is just the best way I could come up with to share the relationships between weapon systems and how they balance each other out.
-BEAM: It should remain the same! Extremely useful.
-LASER: Extendable to 9m (possibly longer for the incorporation of larger turrets?) each extension in length adds to the damage you want it to have a good amount of damage, a lot more than the beam! The 2 seconds between shots is okay for the base block and should scale up with each consecutive extension at a rate of 1 second, making the most powerful barrel have a reload speed of 10 seconds. The base laser should be accurate (possibly within a 5-10m spread?) at 2000m. I know this might seem extreme. But please hear me out, this will not be overpowered or TOO accurate, every player will be moving around in many different directions no matter the ship. Scoring a hit will be difficult yet very rewarding! this is just the base Laser which will be modified with the Barrels and addons allowing players to customize how they want their weapons to be! (More creativity to the builder is fantastique!)
-GATLING BARREL: Extendable to 8m (+2 to current) decreases the Lasers damage by 10% and increases the rate of the laser fire by 15% A 1m long laser with a full 8m Barrel would fire 2 rounds per second. It should not increase the range.
-RECOIL BARREL: Extendable to 8m (2x the current) mitigates the recoil felt. Each extension adds 500m.
max range: 6,000m (this will be very useful with mechs and hovercraft!)
-COOLING BARREL: Extendable to 8m (2x the current) mitigates 12.5% of heat, the same damage as Laser. Decreases rate of fire by 5%. Each extension adds 500m. max range: 6,000m
-RANGE BARREL: Extendable to 16m (2x the current) increases the heat generated by 150%, increases damage by 200%, add a 200% multiplier to seconds between shots dependent on barrel length Each extension adds 1000m. max range: 18,000m
This allows players who are flying around to gauge an enemy's ship armament, such as larger turret emplacements vs small turrets, and then come up with a plan of attack or retreat.
The extension of range and max range is based on the accuracy of the weapon. The ships themselves being highly mobile already add to the inaccuracy and missed shots, adding something that is not accurate or has an extreme spread only makes the issue frustrating and not fun/rewarding. I think for the best gameplay it would be best to have the weapon systems be highly accurate at very far ranges, allowing for a player's skill as a pilot to be first and foremost.
ADDON SYSTEM:
-Damage: Should remain the same
-Overheat: Should remain the same
-Supercharge: Accelerates charging rate of Beam, lasers fire .05 faster? at the cost of .1 heat per module
-Overcharge: Beam fires longer, Lasers have 2-3 overcharged shots per module but the module needs time to refill. Volley.
BRICK WEAPON SYSTEMS:
LASER: the brick laser should have a reload speed of 1 second. and be effective to 1000m
These percentage changes should be the same for both bricks and block barrels/addons for simplicity. However, I think the base reload of the brick weapon should be lower to represent a smaller gun. Which works with the current high heat for brick weapon systems.
I think all lasers (Blocks and bricks) damage output should also be increased as well as their accuracy needing to be extremely increased because the game itself will already put a hindrance on the ability to effectively engage targets at just about any distance.
One thing that wasn't discussed nor has been was stations. Stations are supposed to be from what you said if I recall correctly, very very large! Meaning they will be more susceptible to long-range attacks as they will be more visible and viable targets to effectively engage than say a 300m ship, or possibly a 500m ship. My suggestion For stations would be to have stations have a buff in some way to allow them to not become sitting ducks. A possible 20% range increase?
My reason for the barrels and lasers getting the longer extensions is to promote larger turrets and decreased spamming of turrets which would end up being the go-to. You could also make it required for block-based weapons to be powered from the turret as opposed to being powered from the ship. Hopefully leading to larger turrets. You will never be able to stop everyone from spamming weapons systems and making things work the way they want them to, but providing things that people want, could help mitigate the amount of those that will push the boundaries. (mainly talking about weapon damage and rate of fire)
I put in a lot of effort and time into this over the past two days because I feel this is a huge part of the game to the point where it will make or break it. I adore this game and I want it and yourself to succeed with this! I tried my best to incorporate things and hit on every aspect of the items you have implemented into the game.