[New build - EXPERIMENTAL] 21w10a: Fuel Tanks

[tsunamayo]

The game will soon introduce a Fuel gameplay mechanic, where gas will be harvested and used as fuel to generated power. In that regard two new bricks are introduced: the small and large tank. These are decorative for now but will be used to store fuel in an upcoming update. Furthermore following a discussion with the community the pipe can now be built through hull to allow for less tedious ship design.

Bugfixes:

3650 Switch and logic gates incorrect collisions.

[amplified1]

how long until there is a simple search function in the blueprints menu, it is getting a bit hard to find the ships I have downloaded

[TIKIRobo]

If fuel will be used to power reactors it might be good to add batteries and or some other way of making power

[tsunamayo]

Build is up. Dont hesitate to leave feedback on the tank. Size is a bit weird at 0.75 and 3m, but I wanted something curve and also that can align pipe to the grid. I could make them 1m and 4m if it seems better. Thanks

[TIKIRobo]

For the fuel tank sizes it could be good to let the .75 stretch to 1 and the 3 stretch to 4 so that you can have even and odd sizes if need be.

[Kaiser-Indrasil]

@TIKIRobo But you can already stretch them to these sizes, so I don't see a point...

@tsunamayo I've noticed that half-pipes and quarter-pipes don't count as proper transport pipes but that's probably because of how the brick system works, so there's no fixing that.

I like the pipe UI overlay and I'm wondering how you're going to implement the system of pipes going through the hull. It would be cool if tanks were displayed in a different colour in that UI overlay to easily tell them apart from the pipes.

And I'm really hoping that their model is just a placeholder because that's really plain-looking, even by the game's aesthetics.

[Dwarf-LordPangolin]

This is just a first impression, but:

1. I know they're just decorative at the moment, but fuel!!! Hurray!
2. The pipes being able to pass through hull should solve pretty much all the issues that SE had with conveyors messing up ships' interiors. I actually like that they don't pass through other system blocks; it means the system requires a degree of thought and planning, but not to the prohibitive degree that SE had.
3. I'll have to test this a bit to see if I'm wrong, but we might need a third, even smaller, fuel tank for small vehicles like speeder bikes.
4. I was worried at first that these being rounded would not work well with the cubic nature of the game's blocks, but these actually look like they should blend with the aesthetics well, especially once they get a fancier texture. Just rounding the corners and leaving the rest flat was a good decision.

[Kaiser-Indrasil]

I'll have to test this a bit to see if I'm wrong, but we might need a third, even smaller, fuel tank for small vehicles like speeder bikes.

I very much agree. I struggled to put enough hover pods on my bike as it is and there's just no place to cram a 3x3x3 tank into it.

[tsunamayo]

Yes I am not sure yet for the mini build. For sure mini thruster wont require fuel, only the lightcruise one. It seems to me it is a bit overkill to deal with fuel for the smaller build, so I would need to find a way to integrate it to the game balance... The view of a small fuel cell with a pipe as large dont work well. And I dont want to go smaller on pipe...

Also not sure how it works in SE and else, but I want fuel flow rate to be a thing. Aka you will enough fuel connection if you dont want to choke the thruster. I was think of 1 mini pipe for a power unity, or maybe 1 to 2. Large pipe have 16x time the fuel flow of a smaller one.

[tsunamayo]

@Kaiser-Indrasil what kind of model texture do you want to see instead? I wanted something pretty bland on purpose. @Dwarf-LordPangolin yep I wanted to do them round since I saw how you did your tanks on the Kuroshio...

[ProPeach]

Could mini builds instead use battery bricks? They'd still need to recharge from another grid, but batteries in general would be a fun building tool

Alternatively, do you think fuel will be something you could carry in your survival inventory, like in a barrel/bottle? Perhaps you could open up a brick reactors inventory and place a bottle of fuel in for mini builds like speeder bikes or small hovers etc

Really looking forward to testing this out! So to clarify, the three things that we will need to pipe fuel to will be reactors for power, Lightcruise thrusters and warp blocks? (correct me if I've misunderstood!) In my opinion, 3 independent fuel types is too many for one ship. Maybe Lightcruise thrusters could just require lots more energy when in lightcruise, so they consume lots more fuel from reactors? Although I understand that Lightcruise fuel would be a handy step in progression

[Garrett-C]

This is all sounding pretty cool. I do have a handful of questions though. I haven't tested much ingame yet so apologies if some of these questions are sort of redundant.

1. Will similar systems share fuel with adjacent system blocks. So if you have 2 light cruise thrusters beside each other (but not as 1 stretch block) will fuel be shared between the 2? This is something I consider to be important for any thrusters which are longer than the 16m max length or for any that use multiple thrusters to create a shape other than a square/rectangle (Like a circle for example)

2. Will we potentially see some more pipe types? For example 3 way, 4 way and 6 way pipes. With pipes actually serving a practical function I think it would make sense to add some more types of pipes. 4 way could be made aesthetically using the ability to put pipes through each other but there is the question of would this allow fuel flow.

3. Is there a plan for how to transport fuel between the main grid and a child entity? Thinking longer term using a refueling arm to say transfer fuel between ships would be an interesting mechanic but this is one example where you would need some system to handle moving fuel between a main grid and a child entity.

4. Also would it be possible for pipes to also be built in bricks? A lot of interiors use bricks for detailing and being able to clip pipes though them would be a lot more useful.

[PFSCommissar]

1. I agree with the above suggestion about the pipe overlay color changing based on which tank it's connected to. If nothing else, I think it will be useful to have different colors for unconnected pipes and each of the 3 fuel proposed fuel types.

2. Also, can we please have a way to toggle the overlay off and change the FoV on it? Sorry if it's in there and i missed it, but i can see this getting very overwhelming given how many of us also just use pipes for decor.

[Uncle-Ulty]

Wait, the fuel will be mined and used directly? No refinement? Well, I know it's just preliminary implementation, but it would be interesting to create an intermediary process between the mining and using.

anyway, great job!

[tsunamayo]

Wait, the fuel will be mined and used directly? No refinement? Well, I know it's just preliminary implementation, but it would be interesting to create an intermediary process between the mining and using.

anyway, great job!

Not at first but I definitely want to add refinement and chemistry along the way for the higher tier fuel.

[tsunamayo]

Could mini builds instead use battery bricks? They'd still need to recharge from another grid, but batteries in general would be a fun building tool => yes that is definitely a solid solution. They could recharge close to a power station from a bigger entity, or through the lock perhaps. As they will always be used embedded through a large ship it make sense. Alternatively, do you think fuel will be something you could carry in your survival inventory, like in a barrel/bottle? Perhaps you could open up a brick reactors inventory and place a bottle of fuel in for mini builds like speeder bikes or small hovers etc => yes I think this is also a mush have, and would also be an acceptable solution. Really looking forward to testing this out! So to clarify, the three things that we will need to pipe fuel to will be reactors for power, Lightcruise thrusters and warp blocks? (correct me if I've misunderstood!) In my opinion, 3 independent fuel types is too many for one ship. Maybe Lightcruise thrusters could just require lots more energy when in lightcruise, so they consume lots more fuel from reactors? Although I understand that Lightcruise fuel would be a handy step in progression => so lightcruise and power would use the same fuel for simplicity. Then of course I want to add higher tier fuel, and they might be specialized, ie some fuel would give a power boost, some other a lightcruise boost. That was the idea. For warp I wanted to have something solid, to mix things up a bit. Yes I agree it might be too much... But thats the goal of survival right?

[tsunamayo]

1. I agree with the above suggestion about the pipe overlay color changing based on which tank it's connected to. If nothing else, I think it will be useful to have different colors for unconnected pipes and each of the 3 fuel proposed fuel types.
2. Also, can we please have a way to toggle the overlay off and change the FoV on it? Sorry if it's in there and i missed it, but i can see this getting very overwhelming given how many of us also just use pipes for decor.

This wont be really possible because of tech reason. What do you mean change the fov?

[tsunamayo]

This is all sounding pretty cool. I do have a handful of questions though. I haven't tested much ingame yet so apologies if some of these questions are sort of redundant.

1. Will similar systems share fuel with adjacent system blocks. So if you have 2 light cruise thrusters beside each other (but not as 1 stretch block) will fuel be shared between the 2? This is something I consider to be important for any thrusters which are longer than the 16m max length or for any that use multiple thrusters to create a shape other than a square/rectangle (Like a circle for example)
2. Will we potentially see some more pipe types? For example 3 way, 4 way and 6 way pipes. With pipes actually serving a practical function I think it would make sense to add some more types of pipes. 4 way could be made aesthetically using the ability to put pipes through each other but there is the question of would this allow fuel flow.
3. Is there a plan for how to transport fuel between the main grid and a child entity? Thinking longer term using a refueling arm to say transfer fuel between ships would be an interesting mechanic but this is one example where you would need some system to handle moving fuel between a main grid and a child entity.
4. Also would it be possible for pipes to also be built in bricks? A lot of interiors use bricks for detailing and being able to clip pipes though them would be a lot more useful.

1) No this wont be possible. This would defeat the purpose also, as you would just need to link a single engine close the your tank and thats it. Again always the same conflict between building freedom and gameplay. For sure gameplay is gonna restrict freedom. 2) Yes! But I am think of just giving a single 6 way connector, looking a bit like the starter block. So you can work out any config. 3) Not sure for that one. How is it working in Space Engineers and the like? Maybe only with the piston? 4) not sure yet, I was sure you guys would be wanting that. As you know I want people to use hull block. Thats a way for me say "use hull block". I need to think more about the implications.

[ProPeach]

Thanks for all the in depth answers!

3. Not sure for that one. How is it working in Space Engineers and the like? Maybe only with the piston?

3 - > Space Engineers has pipe attachments on each side of a child entity, which works, but is a bit of a pain for piping up smaller things. I guess that won't be as much of a problem if we only need to pipe up reactors etc

[TIKIRobo]

@tsunamayo @ProPeach also you could use bendy tubes (if they are a planned re-add) to move fuel fuel and then one end of the tube could be on the main craft and the other on the child entity

yes I though about that but it is not a silver bullet, I dont plan to add larger one for example. And it would deform too much in some case and will never look great, ending up being frustrating.

[ProPeach]

Block/brick sized bendy hoses! Yessssssssss, that would be the dream solution

[Garrett-C]

1. No this wont be possible. This would defeat the purpose also, as you would just need to link a single engine close the your tank and thats it. Again always the same conflict between building freedom and gameplay. For sure gameplay is gonna restrict freedom.

I would argue that not allowing this isn't really defeating the purpose or restricting gameplay, it's just making gameplay more tedious.

For example: This engine assuming it is only 16m long would require 9 separate pipelines to it. This is perfectly doable it's just more tedious. However if you were to double the length and make it say 2 sets of 16m long you a) double the number of pipes needed, and b) eliminate the possibility of fueling the middle one. Granted point b could be argued as a limit being added to gameplay sure but point a is just the game being made more tedious. In this particular example, the thruster is actually comprised of 29 separate thruster blocks, which is a lot of pipelines even before you consider the fact that it's mirrored on the other side and there are at least another 2 thrusters like this. I get that this is far above the usual use case but it does feel like this would be excessively tedious for no real benefit.

As an added bonus having 2 touching thrusters share fuel promotes grouping your thrusters together which would be beneficial for things like chain reactions destroying systems.

Even something like this where you can connect thrusters with pipes like this would still be tedious but a lot more manageable than having to pipe every individual thruster back to a fuel tank.

I would not suggest that a fuel tank be able to share fuel with a thruster without pipes but connected thrusters should really share fuel, maybe there could be an efficiency dip on it or something so that you can't just do one pipe to a massive thruster array but some form of sharing would be more ideal than every individual system block needing its own pipe.

4. not sure yet, I was sure you guys would be wanting that. As you know I want people to use hull block. Thats a way for me say "use hull block". I need to think more about the implications.

I feel like allowing us to have pipes go through other blocks (bricks and hull) provides some cool ways to implement the fuel pipes into the designs of interiors but only being able to use full hull blocks seems very limiting.

One example of an area where this could be useful is shown above where you could have some brick-built details to make it look connected to the ceiling.

Or here is an example of where you could build pipes into corridors where you maybe have some brick features to divide up the wall. I am sure people could come up with hundreds of other examples of where the ability to pass them through bricks would be great.

In regards to 2 and 3.

A starter block like 6-way connector could be good for config yeah. I actually hadn't thought of the old hose bricks but those could be a great way of connecting multiple grids.

Certainly excited to see fuel fully added in the future.

[ZachZent]

1. Is there a plan for how to transport fuel between the main grid and a child entity?

There are two potential solutions I can think of for this. The first simple one is simply you connect the pipe to the actual child entity block. Say one into the bottom of the rotator and one right above it. Second would be the return of hoses which were able to bridge between different entities. And hoses were awesome.

2. I know you mentioned before you liked the NMS approach with warp fuel and you stated you wanted something solid. Get it, solid state? Bad joke aside, I remembered you were not sure how to balance out "one item per jump" sort of mechanic as for NMS ships are basically the same size. So (semi-updated) repost of what I said before.

The one item solid jump can be balanced between ships sizes with a variable warp charge up time determined by number of warp cores and distance.

Light years of jump number of warp cores = time it takes to charge up a warp jump 15 ly jump 1 warp core = 15 second charge up (small ship) 15 ly jump 10 warp cores = 150 second charge up (medium ship) 15 ly jump 100 warp cores = 1,500 second charge up (large ship)

Obviously the "equation" needs a bit of love as 1,500 seconds for a single warp jump is insane, but conceptually it allows for a single item warp jump softly balanced by size. Small ships will have fewer cores both by size constraints and not needing them while larger ships COULD have more. It balances large ships and doesn't allow players to just instantly jump away when under attack. One solid tank for warp and one "liquid" tank for cruise is the best option

[Regnion]

Tsuna, please enable pipes to also clip through bricks, including the curved pipe piece. As well, please make the "pipe slab" bricks (there are 3 of them) also function as pipes- I have wing tanks (like you see on helicopters or fighter jets) that are half a brick lower than the rest of the build, due to the height of the 4-to-1 brick (also 2-to-1, and other variants). I can't properly link up these wing tanks.

[tsunamayo]

@Garrett-C btw mate could you send me one of your mega build? Especially one that had still the many block from the Skywanderers voxel area? I need to stress test the new collision system, that one must have been the highest brick count I ever saw. So for stacking thruster it is not a good idea as I want to add thruster damage of some sort, so it might break at one point. Also yes making super large ship is gonna be tedious, what you would really need is bigger thruster. I will see for the brick collision. I want you guys use the current system a bit for now, I mean it has not prevented you to do this everywhere already... ;)

[tsunamayo]

@Regnion noted for the half-size.

[Garrett-C]

No problem. Here are 2 of my mega builds.

Venator BP is my current mega build and it's certainly mega. Obsidian class refit is the one from the old Skywanderers voxel area with all the individual blocks.

Venator BP For Tsuna.zip Obsidian Class refit.zip

In terms of the stacking thrusters and thurster damage, I see what you mean but sometimes stacking thrusters is the only option available short of just a larger thruster than is possible currently. Not to mention I don't know how you plan to do thruster damage without preventing us from doing custom thruster cones and details so I am hopeful that there is some solution to issues like those in place by then lol.

[PFSCommissar]

1. I agree with the above suggestion about the pipe overlay color changing based on which tank it's connected to. If nothing else, I think it will be useful to have different colors for unconnected pipes and each of the 3 fuel proposed fuel types.
2. Also, can we please have a way to toggle the overlay off and change the FoV on it? Sorry if it's in there and i missed it, but i can see this getting very overwhelming given how many of us also just use pipes for decor.

This wont be really possible because of tech reason. What do you mean change the fov?

By "change the FoV" i mean Field of View, so we could make it where the blue overlay only appears 10m in front of us, or 20m, or so on.

However i understand if that's not possible. If nothing else, I think it would be important to be able to turn off the blue overlay through the F3 menu or something similar. But if you don't think it could be turned off because of tech reason, then i would honestly argue that we shouldn't have the overlay at all. It might be cool and helpful in some respects, but it can quickly become overwhelming and straining to the eye:

[tsunamayo]

@PFSCommissar I see, thanks for the screenshot. Could you send me the ship so I can tweak my preview to make it bearable? You used a lot of pipe for decorative purpose. I could tweak it to show below radius, and also close to the center of the screen. It is needed otherwise you just cant build inside hull (aka make corner and such).

[tsunamayo]

@Garrett-C thanks a lot, indeed I have some perf issue to fix with the new raycast.

[PFSCommissar]

@PFSCommissar I see, thanks for the screenshot. Could you send me the ship so I can tweak my preview to make it bearable? You used a lot of pipe for decorative purpose. I could tweak it to show below radius, and also close to the center of the screen. It is needed otherwise you just cant build inside hull (aka make corner and such).

That could be a nice compromise.

[Uncle-Ulty]

1- for mini builds, (and maybe large blocks), wouldn't be interesting to create a fuel tank addon to attach to a small reactor? this would spare pipes to connect.

2-In a recent build, the airship with functional propellers, I added a fuel tank decoration, now I only need to adapt the new fuel tank in its place:

edit:

yeah, I used a lot of pipes for decoration...

[tsunamayo]

@PFSCommissar So here is the new preview:

Shader is lighter and 3D, also it fade out far away (over 15m), and on the edge of the screen.

Incredible ship btw.

I will likely have to introduce a building option menu of some sort at one point, I guess would add the toggle inside that (F3 is really for debugging).

[PFSCommissar]

@tsunamayo that looks much better! thank you for the quick response!