[Dev Asks] Player Inventory and Storage limit

[tsunamayo]

So here is the first survival issue I want to discuss.

So you might have noticed but atm player inventory is a bit all over the place. Right now item bar does not count toward the volume limit of the backpack, which is something I intend to fix.

I am running into an issue of space: to make it somewhat non super tedious to play I will have to put a ridiculously high limit (why not).

I could also introduce a concept of maximum stack (which I might have to do anyway, as I cant display very large qty properly).

Then I could do like in Minecraft and have only a limited number of slots, or still count the volume and say that the volume of a stack only count for a single piece (which is already the case for bricks - otherwise building would be tedious). Downside is that it would increase the number of drag&drop necessary. We need to also think about the late game when we will have more evolved rigs to mine and collect.

What is your take on this? How is it working in Space Engineers and co?

This somehow extend to crate a bit, I find out there where a bit short in space, although I could bump up a bit their storage capacity and call that magic.

Cheers

[SovietSponge]

Only real issue I have is that rocks take an absolutely huge amount of volume, a single one took a quarter of my backpack space.

[tsunamayo]

@SovietSponge The one that you mine?

[SovietSponge]

One that I simply picked up off the ground

[dean-proca]

Inventory volume limits can be quite challenging to balance.

In Space Engineers when we start a new game we have two settings - 'Characters inventory size' that allows us to choose 4 options: 'Realistic, x3, x5, and x10'. 'Blocks inventory size' that allows us to choose 4 options also: 'Realistic, x3, x5, and x10'.

When we want to build a block on a grid we can't have blocks directly in our inventory, we can only have parts. When we select a block from the blocks menu, we place a welding wireframe down on the building grid. We must then have the required parts in the player inventory and weld the block for it to become a fully functional block. If the player inventory size is set to 'Realistic', we can only carry relatively few parts and thus would have to run back and forth between the block we want to weld and the source of parts (either a container or an assembler constructing parts).

In Empyrion we have an option 'Check Mass / Volume' with the options 'Yes' or 'No'. If 'No', player and container storage are infinite. If 'Yes', player inventory has a volume limit based on what type of armor is worn, and containers have preset volume capacities. Of note, there is a type of 'Modular Container' system where we can build a container of varying sizes by adding more container modules connected via adjacency. The more container modules connected together the larger the container's inventory. Concerning player inventory: In Empyrion we don't weld blocks, we place them directly from our inventory. Certain blocks (huge thrusters or 3d printers for example) don't fit in the player's inventory at all. To facilitate manipulating these large blocks, Empyrion has a "Logistics system' where the player is able to wirelessly / remotely connect to vehicle / base inventory to store or access blocks, items, or resources. This system requires a container on the vehicle / base, and a 'wireless block' to access the inventory remotely when off the vehicle / base grid up to 50 meters away for a small grid or 100 meters away for a large grid.

This means in Empyrion if for example, I'm in an extensive POI, if I parked my capital ship within 100 meters and have the wireless block on the ship, I can access it's inventory for storing loot, accessing resources in the ship's inventory, and automatically placing scrapped / retrieved blocks in the vehicle's inventory.

[Tackietacktack]

At weekend I have simulate a survival game start. I have needed 6 hours to catch a crystal and have built a easy fabric and my last hotbar line was full with or. What I'm trying to say is, that a new player need more time (10h) and that is the start from the game or? So, my question is, how long time must you play to get a crystal? So I think I'm prositive for magic.

[Macharius69]

An inventory that's too large is certainly practical, but it reduces the game's realism and difficulty. The inventory should only be used at the start of the game, or later, to pick up interesting items when exploring on foot.

Once you've unlocked the hovercraft, it's possible to have crates at hand, and the inventory is virtually useless.

For me, the right size means you can make your first craft without having to make a lot of trips back and forth.

A dozen or so slots for different ores and a weight / volume limit would be the most credible.

if you want 100T of hull block in your backpack, play in creative mode.

To get around this limitation on ship construction, we could imagine, as on Starmade, a shipyard block, which would enable us to virtually build a ship and draw up its plans. Connected to the containers in our base, it could assemble the ship once the components are available.

or simpler, a shipyard block, with a zone like the gravity block, where we could build directly from the base's stock, not from our inventory. like a geographically restricted creative mode, with our own blocks.

[Uncle-Ulty]

I believe the inventory should be unlimited for now in the early stage of beta. You could go back to this issue in the future. We gonna face lots of bugs and problems yet, a limited inventory could worse or make the beta test more tedious and slow.

[Xerma]

I made a 4m (1x1x1) storage container and it couldn't even hold all the rock that I had. Given that, we would currently need to make massive structures or ships to store and move things. I dont mind the type of inventory we have now compared to limited slots. Inventory size based on volume seems to be the norm. Rocks do seem to take an insane amount of space so maybe that just needs a tweak first? Otherwise, storage containers definitely need more space

[Tackietacktack]

Hm, you have two variable more which you can change for another balance. The volume from ore and how much barrel is one ore. Think its better, when ore has a smaller volume. Then we can put more ore in a container. Or give more barrel( one ore make three barrel). And by iron, silver,... Mining is the stone too much when we have a small inventory. But I have fun by playing. I Just see xerma has said similar the same.

[asanagisae]

I noticed that the early game is locked behind finding your first gold deposit, which could take several hours depending on your luck. The other ores, while necessary, don't produce anything significant until you build your first assembler (which needs gold). Without that assembler, all you're left with is the ability to build some walls.

What if we had special armor you could craft at the crafting bench? For example, you could craft cargo armor that increases the number of blocks and weight you can carry, using only common ores like iron. A different armor could give you faster sprint speed if you're just running around looking for gold. This would give you something to do before you find gold.

In the end game, when you have a working ship and base, you can change the cargo armor for something else, like combat armor or space armor (with better jetpack and more oxygen). You won't always need the extra backpack capacity, and it'd feel good to be able to swap it out for more relevant functions.

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Space engineers has a "welding block" which pulls components from connected inventories to build/repair nearby unfinished blocks. With clever use of pistons and hinges, you can build blueprints at your base without needing to hold items in your personal inventory. It's usually available within the first hour of starting out (ore placement depending).

Space engineers also has wheels. Early in the game, you can create a vehicle primarily for carrying the ores you find, and player inventory size isn't a major concern. As it is, SEVO hovers are comparatively hard to build, requiring an assembler (which should be the mid-point of the planet phase) and silver. By the time you can build hovers, you could build space-capable flying ships instead.

[Tackietacktack]

Wheel is a idea, or hover vehicle are cheaper then ship. Currently you don't need to build a hover vehicle because you need more bricks for it as for a ship.

[tsunamayo]

@asanagisae The big difference is you need fuel for ship, so you need a h2 farm. For hovercraft you only need a swappable battery (tb). But I agree I need to make hovercraft easier to build, but putting them before the assembler seems weird, like you need to build a computer for them!

[Tackietacktack]

Or you make it more difficult to make a ship computer, so that it's easier is to build hover vehicle. I don't know if we need copper for a hover or ship. But when a hover vehicle don't need copper, than is it easier to build because you don't need a arc futnace which need many energy. I forget Silicon. I say easier: Hover need furnace Ship need arc furnace, that the idea

[Tackietacktack]

The scenario is so, that our ship crashed of the planet and we are stranded. An option would be, that we don't need to build a hover vehicle, because we have one in our ship. It could be that it is broken and we need some stuff to repair it.

[asanagisae]

That's brilliant. SE has several "scenarios" you can start a new game with, and starting with a fully-functioning rover is one of them. The rover helps you carry stuff, lessens the tedium of walking, and refills your oxygen on planets or moons without atmosphere.

You don't need an excuse for building a hover computer before the assembler if the hover is already built for you. Plus, new players will be able to see a "working" vehicle as an example.

[aeluabik]

Hello, I’m not in closed beta, but always taking a look at the discord because I just love the whole concept of it. I’d like to give an opinion on this topic, if that’s ok.

This game adds a lot of customisation to vehicles, you can get inside of them, create whole hangars, huge doors and so on. If there’s such a benefit to transportation, why would the inventory be big? I’m such a fan of games like the forest, star citizen, ECO and haven and hearth, where you need to physically grab wood, stone and the inventory is reserved to small itens, small rocks, circuits. You use logistics and other means of transportation to carry stuff around. This issue could be dealt with if, for example, you star the game with wreckage that can be further transformed in a vehicle and an AI robot that helps in your tasks. Then, an optional hardcore mode could be possible, where you start with nothing. Physical itens bring immersion, cutting inventories is a good way to do that. The key to remove boredom is to avoid loading bars, making extraction of stuff fast. It also forces you to plan where your base is going to be. Logistics are cool! :)

[Majikmonster]

A lesson learned from Space Engineers and Minecraft in regard to significant amounts of materials is that the player needs external storage like crates or chests and also the ability to move them without a mode of transportation (cart, hovercraft, boat, ship). In other words, the player character needs to be able to grab and carry crates by hand (and maybe even a loose cargo container up to a 1 cubic meter in size). That reduces the need for an oversized character inventory yet allows the transfer of large(er) quantities. Also, it makes these storage solutions mobile, which is great for every stage of gameplay, and tactile, so it's logistically rewarding. It doesn't mean we can't or won't have character inventory like a backpack or pockets, but it makes cargo handling much more interactive and player-friendly.