[Dev Asks] Get to the first ore, reassessment after scanner update

[tsunamayo]

So one of the biggest balance issue we had is to find the first exotic ore patches that will unlock the tech to hovercraft. Walking is slow, and you dont know where to look.

A lot of people suggested to simply lower the tech to hovercraft which might be an option, but it seems a bit weird to be able to craft thruster, computer and such with the crafting table, with just basic iron.

Now that we have a scanner it should make our life much easier to find these first patches. On my playthrough I realize that there was an underground gold patch just a few meter from my starting point...

=> could you guy restart a new survival game to assess how is the situation?

I also plan to reduce the size of exotic patches (only iron will be very large, as you need tons of it).

Thanks!

[dean-proca]

Many games provide a low tech starting vehicle to use for faster traversal to start with. This low tech vehicle usually has some big drawback so that the player wouldn't want to use it beyond very early game.

Just throwing it out there for consideration.

[Tackietacktack]

Runs very good,

Scanner: the color from iron and silver is very identic but range from scanner and all other is good. It's similar to the "x4 foundation" scanner, which is how I imagined it. Later with a full functional ship could the scanner range larger, could it be possible with a antenna?

reduction from the size of exotic patches : make sense, I have mining exotic ore one time at begin that was enough for 4h gaming. Deep mining works good. By the way back from the deep I get unusual many speed in up direction.

Hovercraft: now is it no problem to build a vehicle because you don't need to run long time to get the resource for it. the problem is that hover are More expensive as ships. Options are, no solar of ships, Make it more expensive to produce ship computer or generator or fuel production.

I think, when ship computer need a special resource like a "thrust stabilizer" and and to produce a "thrust stabilzer" you need 10 piece cobalt, 10 pieces copper and 10 pieces gold, that make a ship more expensive as a hover.

Conrainer: I haven't need to use it. Ore is in my hotbar because it weight to much for bag or container, Ingots goes half to - assembler and the rest in my hotbar there is it save, produced bricks in assembler or bag. I don't know if now is the time to reduce the carrying capacity, now we can test update fast but at some point it can't happen.

Build back from wrecks: It was able to build back wrecks of the moon from the gas gaint planet.

Cheers

[Crimson-Artist]

If crafting hover pods and thrusters from a crafting table seems unlikely to you perhaps the solution is to add wheels. wheels could do sort of be both. The amount/scale of wheels vs the vehicle mass will determine the speed and maneuverability. that way you only have to concern yourself with wheels, computer, reactor, and yoke when building a ground vehicle.

[Gallt]

It really feels like there is just a tech level missing. We discard wood/coal/scrap way too fast, and there isnt much "EVO"lution in your ship building. Other survival games have 2 "chokepoint" styles to funnel players through to keep progressions

1. Tech tree. You have to level or earn points of some kind to unlock techs. So you'll get hovercraft before fliers because that is what you get first in the tree. (Space Engineers and Empyrion use this)

2. Crafting Cokepoints. I think this would fit better. You need to progress to get X material to unlock the bench that allows you to make next "teir" of stuff, and that teir has chokepoint. Like having to get to the asteroid to get the crystals. You needed to do a challenge to unlock the thing that will let you do the next things. (Nightengale, Breaths-edge use this)

Now, as of right now? I can build a super capital off the main planet. There is little reason to ever leave. I think we need to move things like Cobalt, Gold/SIlver (in actual large quantities) off planet so you have to go find them otherwise its going to turn into people turtle-ing on starting world until they are super-powered and then leave. Also keep Coal, Wood, stone, Scrap relevant longer.

My idea would be:

T1: "Suvivor Teir" -Workbench, Smelter- Basically as is, but instead of going right into arc-smelter/assembler we have the interim tier:

T2: "Wreck-Tech Teir -Mechanically Assisted Workbench (put the materials in, and it will auto craft if power is available, so a step between the workbench and the assembler, but not linked to storage so still have to manually fill it. Gives that sense of progression when we get to assemblers.). Maybe need a "ai board" or somthing salvaged from a ship to be able to make this. This would be the chokepoint so people have to salvage and explore a bit to be able to make the T2 stations/items.

-Scrap Chem station (allows early game meds, and process wood into "botanical compound" (aka. Rubber, but neutrally named enough to use for a bunch of other things. Aka- Copper bar + Botanical compound = Insulated Wiring as a part. can be something in for rest of game then).

-Coal Generator. Provides consistent power, but eats coal and makes smoke (can be connected via tubes next teir)

Big thing about this and how it relates to hover vehicles? Keep on with the scrap. We change the name of scrap hull to "crude hull" and can build the same way (1-1 scrap to crude hull, 2 Iron Ingot to 1 crude hull). The mechanically assisted workbench makes it less of a leap to do more advanced construction since, in-world logic, it isn't just you banging away at a wood table. But we dont stop at just salvaging for hulls. When you salvage engines you get "scrap engine parts", when you salvage weapons you get "scrap weapon parts", shields, reactors, ect. Not everything needs a unique scrap, just the major parts. So now we can make "Crude hover engines" with scrap engine parts, insulated wiring and whatever. Coal Generator: needs scrap reactor parts, can power early game vehicles. Crude engines, crude weapons. We sit with early game materials longer. Each system now would introduce/teach the skills for the next stuff (oh, hey, a hopper to feed coal into the coal generator? now you understand inventory transfer through tubes, so you get it when arc-furnaces and assemblers are unlocked next teir). Scrapping on the starting world means we dont have to put every single deposit on the planet, they can make up to "crude", and their first ship should be made out of "crude" materials so they have to leave and explore. Maybe certain things can only be found in the mountains or further towards the poles of the planet so you basically need a hover vehicle to get the thing(s) to make a starting ship?

Further milestones are locked out by needing to "solve" an engineering or exploration problem too so it drives people to explore and create.

we got a universe of over 100k systems. we shouldn't be able to make super-capitals from the starting system.

I have a ton more ideas on this. Little gates that slow people down and direct them without feeling oppressive but ill save that for if you're interested and want more.

[dean-proca]

I suppose part of the consideration should be what will the player eventually be doing on a planet other than just trying to get off? Games like Space Engineers and Empyrion have a stage in the player's life where they're just planet bound for a while and struggle with planetary survival for a while. During this stage the player is investigating planetary POIs, fighting a potential hostile faction on the planet, struggling with hostile fauna, and perhaps struggling with food or temperature. I know we're not there yet so at the moment everything seems prolonged since all we're doing is racing to try to build something, but perhaps considering what the eventual goal is will shed some light on how long things on a planet are supposed to take.

[tsunamayo]

Thanks for the suggestions, but any feedback on getting to those first ore with the help of the scanner?

@Gallt Yes I want to add more depth to that middle tech tree, more scrap variety was also an idea I had, research was another. I will reduce the number of rare metal spawn like I said, for now there are too plentiful. I cant make the first spaceship any more basic for now though, it doesnt have lightcruise, warp, shield or weapons (for now). So your capital ship will feel a bit sorry. One area people completely overlook in their feedback is the existence of the hydrogen generation phase. This is my technological choke point, and what makes spaceship harder than hovercraft. I could add plenty more content to the initial starting planet phase, but without any threat they will feel a bit bland. This mid-tier tech stuff will be completely deprecated quite quickly to in a play through. So I would prefer spend time on adding mid and late game content in the form of missions, exotic material for hull and weapons and more.

[Tisdag1]

A couple of things so far for me.

First, the addition of the ore scanner is fantastic! It has taken what used to be an annoying chore & turned it into something fun to do. I have been having a blast wandering around & pinging, just to see what pops up. However, part of me does feel like I'm cheating and that maybe it should be something we need to craft though. Either that, or maybe we start out with a very rudimentary one (can only scan for surface level deposits in a small radius). Then we need to craft a more advanced scanner block that we build onto our ships/hovercrafts. Maybe something like, the bigger the block, the deeper & wider it can scan. Or maybe we can have it only scan for certain ores.

Second, I have not found the spaceship to be any harder to build than the hovercraft. Quite the opposite actually. I always just bypass the hovercraft & go straight to building the spaceship anyways cause I find they are actually easer to build & can pretty much do everything the hovercraft can do, but better & faster. (It probably does use fuel faster, but never actually paid attention.)

Hydrogen hasn't been an issue, because I just slap a couple small solar panels on my my ship and I'm off soaring with the birds. Then, when I get my Hydrogen station up & running I ditch the solar panels. The spaceship I can slap together real quick & be on my way. While the hovercraft I have to fiddle with the thruster strengths, and make sure that my craft is balanced so that it's not front or back heavy. And even then it's skittish & touchy if I start going at any decent speed. Frequently I have rolled or flipped, or have gone airborne from a small bump & lost control until I came crashing down again

[Crimson-Artist]

@tsunamayo I think the ore scanner should be an upgrade that is locked behind research. In other words we have to tech up to it. We don't begin the game with it. you could have it so as we advance through the research tree we can gradually upgrade the scanner so we can detect more types of ore or increase the pulses range.

picture this: we start the game without the scanner so we have to look for resources manually. Then when we reach the first research tier we can unlock a basic ore scanner that can only pick up iron. As we advance we can unlock more upgrades to the scanner

[Tisdag1]

Just a small update on my previous post. As I have been playing more since I built the hovercraft, I do find myself enjoying the hovercraft more & more. And find myself preferring to reach for it more frequently over my spaceship for the smaller jobs & more local to mid range work/travel. And using my spaceship for the big jobs & longer distance work/travel.

All in all I am having a blast with the survival so far! Keep up the great work Tsuna!

[Gallt]

@tsunamayo Totally fair! I'm just brainstorming in the dark until we see more how the more final game-play and game-play loops will look :)

[dean-proca]

Ore seems much easier to find and I had no idea there was deep ore. It was very helpful.