Israel Flag Missing, Palestine Flag in it's place

I’ve been playing Chatguessr for a while now, and one of the things I love most about it is how it brings people from all over the world together, no matter where you’re from. That’s why I was pretty shocked and frustrated to see that the Israeli flag has been removed from the game and replaced with the Palestinian flag or the US State of Illinois.

I’m not here to stir up a political debate, but I think it’s important to point out that removing the Israeli flag isn’t just a small tweak—it has real implications. For one, it's an exclusion of a recognized country and its people, which doesn’t sit right with me. This decision also takes away from the idea that Chatguessr is a fun, neutral space where everyone can enjoy themselves, free from political tension.

I get that flags can be a sensitive topic, but Israel is a recognized state by the international community, and it should have a place in the game, just like any other country (including Palestine). By removing it, Chatguessr is making a statement, whether they meant to or not, and that’s not fair to those of us who just want to play a game without politics getting involved.

I'm not saying get rid of the Palestine flag either. Keep it!

This game should be a place where everyone feels included and represented.

First of all i'm talking in my name, as the main cg developer who took that decision, not the whole team, even though i'm pretty sure they would agree.

I'm sorry if you feel hurt by this, the decision to remove the flag was of course a political choice, the intention was not to target or exclude the people of Israel, but to take a stand against the state’s actions and to avoid endorsing a regime that many view as deeply unjust.

This action is not against Israelis as individuals, but against the policies and actions of the Israeli state that contribute to these ongoing injustices. Our goal is to stand in solidarity with oppressed communities and to raise awareness about the need for justice and peace. I hope you can understand that this decision is about taking a stand against state actions, not against people.

"This game should be a place where everyone feels included and represented."

That's exactly the point. From the creation Israel is an appartheid state, based on neglecting other's people lands and rights, and i think you shouldn't feel represented and be proud of it.

This statement was made back in 2021 by Jewish universitarians (including the very based Judith Butler) and i think goes staight to the point to answer your concern :

We Jewish people internationally appeal to Jews and Jewish organizations around the world to remove Israel flags from communal spaces, whether at Jewish schools, Jewish Federation offices or synagogues. It is clear to us – and much of the world – as the reports of B’Tselem and Human Rights Watch have demonstrated – that the Israeli State is an Apartheid regime and therefore, as international law correctly confirms, it is an ongoing crime against humanity.

The government of Israel, since its start, has been determined to totally subjugate or remove the indigenous Palestinians from the land they’ve lived in for centuries. The Jewish supremacist state of Israel is deeply discriminatory and necessarily violent towards Palestinians who naturally resist oppression and expulsion. Israel logically allies itself with Far Right and Anti-Semitic forces even though this endangers Jews worldwide. That may seem astounding, but these noxious alliances have long been the practice of the Zionist organizations that worked to create Israel.

It is increasingly important for Jews to distinguish between Judaism and the State of Israel and its policies. By featuring an Israeli flag prominently in our communal institutions, we permit anti-Semites to believe that our interests are inextricably linked to those of a state whose policies we abhor.

https://mondoweiss.net/2021/06/take-down-the-israeli-flag

Theo,

Thank you for responding to my concerns regarding the removal of the Israeli flag from Chatguessr. While I appreciate your willingness to explain your decision, I must strongly disagree with both the rationale and the content of your message. It’s important to address the misinformation and one-sided narrative presented.

First, I find it troubling that you have chosen to remove the Israeli flag as a political statement, particularly on a platform that should be inclusive and apolitical. By removing Israel’s flag, you are not fostering inclusivity but rather alienating and excluding a portion of your player base. This action directly contradicts the idea that Chatguessr is a space where "everyone feels included and represented."

Your email characterizes Israel as an apartheid state, which is a serious accusation that does not reflect the full reality. The term "apartheid" originates from the system of racial segregation in South Africa, where black South Africans were legally and institutionally discriminated against and deprived of basic rights. In contrast, Israel is a democratic state where all citizens, regardless of ethnicity or religion, have equal rights under the law.

Here are some key points that highlight why the apartheid label does not apply to Israel:

Equal Legal Rights: Arab citizens of Israel, who make up about 20% of the population, have the same legal rights as Jewish citizens. They vote, run for office, and serve in the Knesset (Israeli parliament). There are Arab judges in Israel's courts, including the Supreme Court. 2.

Political Representation: Arab political parties and politicians are active in Israel's political landscape. For example, Mansour Abbas, leader of the United Arab List, was part of the coalition government formed in 2021, which marked the first time an Arab party was part of an Israeli government coalition. 3.

Access to Education and Employment: Arab citizens in Israel have access to the same educational institutions as Jewish citizens and work in various sectors, including healthcare, academia, and public service. 4.

Civil Liberties: All Israeli citizens, regardless of ethnicity or religion, enjoy freedom of speech, press, and assembly. These freedoms are protected by law and practiced in daily life.

Regarding the conflict with Palestinians, it is essential to understand that the situation is complex, involving security concerns, territorial disputes, and historical grievances. Labeling Israel as an apartheid state oversimplifies these issues and ignores the fact that many of the policies in question are rooted in the need for security, especially given the threats Israel faces from groups that do not recognize its right to exist.

Your decision to remove the Israeli flag while keeping the flag of North Korea, a state known for its severe human rights violations and oppressive regime, is perplexing. North Korea’s inclusion while Israel is excluded raises questions about the consistency of your platform’s approach to representing nations. It seems contradictory to argue that Israel’s flag should be removed due to its government’s policies, while allowing the flag of a country with one of the worst human rights records in the world to remain available.

Additionally, I noticed that you referenced an article from Mondoweiss as a justification for your decision. I would like to point out that Mondoweiss is widely recognized as a site that often disseminates biased information and has been criticized for its role in spreading anti-Israel propaganda. Relying on such a source to justify removing Israel’s flag risks promoting a narrative that is not only one-sided but also factually questionable. If we are to have a constructive discussion about these issues, it is important to base our arguments on reliable and balanced sources.

The statement you referenced from a group of Jewish individuals represents one perspective and does not reflect the views of the global Jewish community. Many Jewish people, along with non-Jews, support Israel’s right to exist and to be represented in international spaces. Criticism of specific policies does not equate to the delegitimization of the state itself.

Your decision to remove the Israeli flag based on a narrow and politicized view undermines the principles of inclusivity and neutrality that should define Chatguessr. If you are truly committed to creating a space where everyone feels welcome, I urge you to reconsider this decision and reinstate the Israeli flag. By doing so, you would affirm the rights of all players to be represented and respected, regardless of their nationality.

I hope you will reflect on the broader implications of this decision and consider the importance of maintaining a neutral and inclusive platform for all.

Sources: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Arab_members_of_the_Knesset

https://www.cbs.gov.il/en/mediarelease/pages/2024/the-muslim-population-in-israel-2024.aspx

https://www.jpost.com/israel-news/article-698154

On Fri, Aug 9, 2024 at 2:31 AM Théo Zahaf @.***> wrote:

First of all i'm talking in my name, as the main cg developer who took that decision, not the whole team, even though i'm pretty sure they would agree.

I'm sorry if you feel hurt by this, the decision to remove the flag was of course a political choice, the intention was not to target or exclude the people of Israel, but to take a stand against the state’s actions and to avoid endorsing a regime that many view as deeply unjust.

This action is not against Israelis as individuals, but against the policies and actions of the Israeli state that contribute to these ongoing injustices. Our goal is to stand in solidarity with oppressed communities and to raise awareness about the need for justice and peace. I hope you can understand that this decision is about taking a stand against state actions, not against people.

"This game should be a place where everyone feels included and represented."

That's exactly the point. From the creation Israel is an appartheid state, based on neglecting other's people lands and rights, and i think you shouldn't feel represented and be proud of it.

This statement was made back in 2021 by Jewish universitarians and i think goes staight to the point to answer you concern :

We Jewish people internationally appeal to Jews and Jewish organizations around the world to remove Israel flags from communal spaces, whether at Jewish schools, Jewish Federation offices or synagogues. It is clear to us – and much of the world – as the reports of B’Tselem and Human Rights Watch have demonstrated – that the Israeli State is an Apartheid regime and therefore, as international law correctly confirms, it is an ongoing crime against humanity.

The government of Israel, since its start, has been determined to totally subjugate or remove the indigenous Palestinians from the land they’ve lived in for centuries. The Jewish supremacist state of Israel is deeply discriminatory and necessarily violent towards Palestinians who naturally resist oppression and expulsion. Israel logically allies itself with Far Right and Anti-Semitic forces even though this endangers Jews worldwide. That may seem astounding, but these noxious alliances have long been the practice of the Zionist organizations that worked to create Israel.

It is increasingly important for Jews to distinguish between Judaism and the State of Israel and its policies. By featuring an Israeli flag prominently in our communal institutions, we permit anti-Semites to believe that our interests are inextricably linked to those of a state whose policies we abhor.

https://mondoweiss.net/2021/06/take-down-the-israeli-flag

— Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub https://github.com/tzhf/chatguessr/issues/77#issuecomment-2277240334, or unsubscribe https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/BKNJH4E44AIRX7AHYROQJCLZQRO4JAVCNFSM6AAAAABMHT56F2VHI2DSMVQWIX3LMV43OSLTON2WKQ3PNVWWK3TUHMZDENZXGI2DAMZTGQ . You are receiving this because you authored the thread.Message ID: @.***>

@Saltyalty20

Your argument regarding apartheid is a strawman – when people talk about Israeli apartheid, they're usually referring to the situation in occupied Palestine, not inside Israel proper. You might notice that the article that tzhf linked to indeed only mentions Israeli actions in Palestinian territories. And regarding that, the International Court of Justice ruled last month that Israeli actions over the years at least violate the article in the International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination that outlaws apartheid:

A number of participants have argued that Israel’s policies and practices in the Occupied Palestinian Territory amount to segregation or apartheid, in breach of Article 3 of CERD.

Article 3 of CERD provides as follows: “States Parties particularly condemn racial segregation and apartheid and undertake to prevent, prohibit and eradicate all practices of this nature in territories under their jurisdiction.” This provision refers to two particularly severe forms of racial discrimination: racial segregation and apartheid.

The Court observes that Israel’s policies and practices in the West Bank and East Jerusalem implement a separation between the Palestinian population and the settlers transferred by Israel to the territory.

This separation is first and foremost physical: Israel’s settlement policy furthers the fragmentation of the West Bank and East Jerusalem, and the encirclement of Palestinian communities into enclaves. As a result of discriminatory policies and practices such as the imposition of a residence permit system and the use of distinct road networks, which the Court has discussed above, Palestinian communities remain physically isolated from each other and separated from the communities of settlers (see, for example, paragraphs 200 and 219).

The separation between the settler and Palestinian communities is also juridical. As a result of the partial extension of Israeli law to the West Bank and East Jerusalem, settlers and Palestinians are subject to distinct legal systems in the Occupied Palestinian Territory (see paragraphs 135-137 above). To the extent that Israeli law applies to Palestinians, it imposes on them restrictions, such as the requirement for a permit to reside in East Jerusalem, from which settlers are exempt. In addition, Israel’s legislation and measures that have been applicable for decades treat Palestinians differently from settlers in a wide range of fields of individual and social activity in the West Bank and East Jerusalem (see paragraphs 192-222 above).

The Court observes that Israel’s legislation and measures impose and serve to maintain a near-complete separation in the West Bank and East Jerusalem between the settler and Palestinian communities. For this reason, the Court considers that Israel’s legislation and measures constitute a breach of Article 3 of CERD.

And no, there are no exceptions to fundamental human rights. You don't get to weasel your way out of it by claiming that the situation is "complex".

tzhf / chatguessr

Israel Flag Missing, Palestine Flag in it's place #77