Open sjbarry opened 8 years ago
mebucci
commented
8 years ago To sjbarry: It could be either of your concerns. I will need to pull the photograph to see what the issues with it are. If you would like, I can also send it to you. Please contact me at mebucci@email.arizona.edu and we can further discuss this specimen. Thank you for you bringing this to our attention and helping us resolve issues we might have with our collection. Melanie
sjbarry
commented
8 years ago Hi Melanie--
Thanks for your response to my notice regarding UAZ 52001. I’d very much like to see the photograph if possible—in the meantime I’ll look more closely at the coordinates and see if a small error correction would place the specimen where it belongs in Santa Cruz County. A G. quadrangulare population in the Mojave/Sonoran desert boundary in La Paz County would be pretty amazing. Please let me know if you need further information.
Thanks
Sean Barry
From: mebucci Sent: Monday, July 11, 2016 9:54 AM To: uaz-feedback/uaz-herps Cc: sjbarry ; Author Subject: Re: [uaz-feedback/uaz-herps] [UAZ Herpetology UAZ 52001-PSV] Gyalopion quadrangulare - Possibly erroneous identification or locality for UAZ 52001-PSV (catalogued as Gyalopion quadrangulare) (#13)
To sjbarry: It could be either of your concerns. I will need to pull the photograph to see what the issues with it are. If you would like, I can also send it to you. Please contact me at mebucci@email.arizona.edu and we can further discuss this specimen. Thank you for you bringing this to our attention and helping us resolve issues we might have with our collection. Melanie
— You are receiving this because you authored the thread. Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub, or mute the thread.
mebucci
commented
8 years ago Hi Sean,
So, interesting news and bad news. The bad news is that the photos in question are slides for UAZ 52001. Unfortunately, I forget that things are not always jpeg/tif files. I will need to scour the department for a slide scanner and that may take a whole bunch of time, but as soon as I can find one I will scan these and send them onto you.
The interesting news is that there was a letter that came with the photos that states this is a range extension of Gyalopion quadrangulare and the collector was going to write it up and submit it to SSAR. I am attaching a photo of the letter.
?Please hang in there and be patient, I am still trying to gain my footing as I have only recently taken over as collection manager for herps.
Melanie
Melanie Bucci Mammalogy, Herpetology, & Ornithology Collections Ecology & Evolutionary Biology The University of Arizona BioScience East Tucson, Arizona 85721 520-621-7291 mebucci@email.arizona.edu
From: sjbarry notifications@github.com Sent: Monday, July 11, 2016 12:00 To: uaz-feedback/uaz-herps Cc: Bucci, Melanie E - (mebucci); Comment Subject: Re: [uaz-feedback/uaz-herps] [UAZ Herpetology UAZ 52001-PSV] Gyalopion quadrangulare - Possibly erroneous identification or locality for UAZ 52001-PSV (catalogued as Gyalopion quadrangulare) (#13)
Hi Melanie--
Thanks for your response to my notice regarding UAZ 52001. I'd very much like to see the photograph if possible-in the meantime I'll look more closely at the coordinates and see if a small error correction would place the specimen where it belongs in Santa Cruz County. A G. quadrangulare population in the Mojave/Sonoran desert boundary in La Paz County would be pretty amazing. Please let me know if you need further information.
Thanks
Sean Barry
From: mebucci Sent: Monday, July 11, 2016 9:54 AM To: uaz-feedback/uaz-herps Cc: sjbarry ; Author Subject: Re: [uaz-feedback/uaz-herps] [UAZ Herpetology UAZ 52001-PSV] Gyalopion quadrangulare - Possibly erroneous identification or locality for UAZ 52001-PSV (catalogued as Gyalopion quadrangulare) (#13)
To sjbarry: It could be either of your concerns. I will need to pull the photograph to see what the issues with it are. If you would like, I can also send it to you. Please contact me at mebucci@email.arizona.edu and we can further discuss this specimen. Thank you for you bringing this to our attention and helping us resolve issues we might have with our collection. Melanie
You are receiving this because you authored the thread. Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub, or mute the thread.
You are receiving this because you commented. Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHubhttps://github.com/uaz-feedback/uaz-herps/issues/13#issuecomment-231831552, or mute the threadhttps://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe/AMs4L3T5R5i8Pe6S6JqDxsFIVYtT50Tnks5qUpLhgaJpZM4JHs_f.
sjbarry
commented
8 years ago Hi Melanie--
Thanks for the update. Very interesting..... the letter didn’t come through this time, so when you have a moment I’d much appreciate it if you could re-send. I’m assuming that the collector was neither dishonest nor naive, so I suspect it’s a mistaken ID (my bet would be Sonora, maybe even Chionactis or Chilomeniscus—the collector would have to be amazingly naïve if it turned out to be Micruroides). To publish range extensions in Herpetological Review SSAR requires independent ID verification and I suspect that the collector found that no one would confirm any Gyalopion for that locality. However, anything is possible so I’ll look forward to the photos, again at your convenience.
I was the mammal, bird, and herpetological collections manager at UC Davis for several years back in the 1970’s and I have strong empathy for you in the context of the tasks that confront you. On the other hand, in my opinion there aren’t too many better work settings than a museum if you appreciate diversity and the benefits of organization and order and most especially if you also get to go out in the field from time to time.
Take care
Sean
From: mebucci Sent: Monday, July 11, 2016 12:57 PM To: uaz-feedback/uaz-herps Cc: sjbarry ; Author Subject: Re: [uaz-feedback/uaz-herps] [UAZ Herpetology UAZ 52001-PSV] Gyalopion quadrangulare - Possibly erroneous identification or locality for UAZ 52001-PSV (catalogued as Gyalopion quadrangulare) (#13)
Hi Sean,
So, interesting news and bad news. The bad news is that the photos in question are slides for UAZ 52001. Unfortunately, I forget that things are not always jpeg/tif files. I will need to scour the department for a slide scanner and that may take a whole bunch of time, but as soon as I can find one I will scan these and send them onto you.
The interesting news is that there was a letter that came with the photos that states this is a range extension of Gyalopion quadrangulare and the collector was going to write it up and submit it to SSAR. I am attaching a photo of the letter.
?Please hang in there and be patient, I am still trying to gain my footing as I have only recently taken over as collection manager for herps.
Melanie
Melanie Bucci Mammalogy, Herpetology, & Ornithology Collections Ecology & Evolutionary Biology The University of Arizona BioScience East Tucson, Arizona 85721 520-621-7291 mebucci@email.arizona.edu
From: sjbarry notifications@github.com Sent: Monday, July 11, 2016 12:00 To: uaz-feedback/uaz-herps Cc: Bucci, Melanie E - (mebucci); Comment Subject: Re: [uaz-feedback/uaz-herps] [UAZ Herpetology UAZ 52001-PSV] Gyalopion quadrangulare - Possibly erroneous identification or locality for UAZ 52001-PSV (catalogued as Gyalopion quadrangulare) (#13)
Hi Melanie--
Thanks for your response to my notice regarding UAZ 52001. I'd very much like to see the photograph if possible-in the meantime I'll look more closely at the coordinates and see if a small error correction would place the specimen where it belongs in Santa Cruz County. A G. quadrangulare population in the Mojave/Sonoran desert boundary in La Paz County would be pretty amazing. Please let me know if you need further information.
Thanks
Sean Barry
From: mebucci Sent: Monday, July 11, 2016 9:54 AM To: uaz-feedback/uaz-herps Cc: sjbarry ; Author Subject: Re: [uaz-feedback/uaz-herps] [UAZ Herpetology UAZ 52001-PSV] Gyalopion quadrangulare - Possibly erroneous identification or locality for UAZ 52001-PSV (catalogued as Gyalopion quadrangulare) (#13)
To sjbarry: It could be either of your concerns. I will need to pull the photograph to see what the issues with it are. If you would like, I can also send it to you. Please contact me at mebucci@email.arizona.edu and we can further discuss this specimen. Thank you for you bringing this to our attention and helping us resolve issues we might have with our collection. Melanie
You are receiving this because you authored the thread. Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub, or mute the thread.
You are receiving this because you commented. Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHubhttps://github.com/uaz-feedback/uaz-herps/issues/13#issuecomment-231831552, or mute the threadhttps://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe/AMs4L3T5R5i8Pe6S6JqDxsFIVYtT50Tnks5qUpLhgaJpZM4JHs_f.
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mebucci
commented
8 years ago Hi Sean, Thank you for being understanding and patient. I am going to try and attach within github and see if you get these files. Please do let me know if you still are having problems with them and perhaps you can email me direct from your email account and we can see if that works more successfully. Please let me know what you find from all this and I can make changes as needed. Melanie
sjbarry
commented
8 years ago Hi Melanie--
The letter came through just fine, and of course it increases the intrigue a bit. I’ll wait until the slide scans are available before pursuing it further. I have the impression that Eugene Trescott was probably not experienced with Arizona herpetology and may not even have been involved with the record--UAZ 52001 appears to be the only record attributed to him in all of VertNet. In any case Chuck Lowe would never have accepted that record without significant corroboration so I expect it died right there but was left in place in the UAZ catalogue because of the accompanying documentation and specimen, with no contradictory information available at the time. After I see the slides, assuming they’re really of Gyalopion, I’ll probably try to contact Mr. Trescott.
I realize that this is a lot of effort for one likely erroneous record, but it’s so far out of accepted reality that one has to wonder about the circumstances that produced it. Plus, it would otherwise just be a matter of time before someone who is less of a skeptic than me notices it and publicizes it uncritically—I’ve gone through that in spades with my work on Sierra Nevada ranid frogs.
Sean
From: mebucci Sent: Monday, July 11, 2016 2:32 PM To: uaz-feedback/uaz-herps Cc: sjbarry ; Author Subject: Re: [uaz-feedback/uaz-herps] [UAZ Herpetology UAZ 52001-PSV] Gyalopion quadrangulare - Possibly erroneous identification or locality for UAZ 52001-PSV (catalogued as Gyalopion quadrangulare) (#13)
Hi Sean, Thank you for being understanding and patient. I am going to try and attach within github and see if you get these files. Please do let me know if you still are having problems with them and perhaps you can email me direct from your email account and we can see if that works more successfully. Please let me know what you find from all this and I can make changes as needed. Melanie
UAZ 52001a-c.pdf
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mebucci
commented
8 years ago Hi Sean, I am very glad you brought this to my attention. This is how collections become better. No one person has the time to go through everything in a collection, so there are mistakes in id left there all the time until someone using the collection catches them. I am always open to moving forward into the future to make things better and anyone willing and able to catch mistakes is doing us here at the U of A a favor. So please, don't apologize because I feel the effort is worth it.
I did find a scanner. I tried to attach on the last comment, but I don't think it worked. So I am going to try again here. Please let me know if you are having problems downloading them. I put the 3 slides I have of the specimen into a pdf document.
Also, when I looked at the letter addressed to Lowe, it left me wondering as well. However, that being said, I wonder if it somehow bypassed him and got cataloged. Hopefully the photos will prove to be helpful. Melanie
sjbarry
commented
8 years ago Hi Melanie--
The slides are great, and no question, the photos are of G. quadrangulare, but very far out of its accepted range and habitat.
New facts:
So, apparently the record is already understood as being probably erroneous and it would be pointless to attempt to find out how it came about. It’s so wrong that only someone very naïve would have credited it, and it seems from Eugene Trescott’s letter that he was on the verge of doing just that. Sadly, it could easily have been a practical joke that got out of hand which these days is not unknown in field herpetology.
Thanks for all of your efforts on this, and I hope we’ll have a chance to work together again, in a little more positive realm next time.
Take care
Sean
From: mebucci Sent: Monday, July 11, 2016 3:12 PM To: uaz-feedback/uaz-herps Cc: sjbarry ; Author Subject: Re: [uaz-feedback/uaz-herps] [UAZ Herpetology UAZ 52001-PSV] Gyalopion quadrangulare - Possibly erroneous identification or locality for UAZ 52001-PSV (catalogued as Gyalopion quadrangulare) (#13)
Hi Sean, I am very glad you brought this to my attention. This is how collections become better. No one person has the time to go through everything in a collection, so there are mistakes in id left there all the time until someone using the collection catches them. I am always open to moving forward into the future to make things better and anyone willing and able to catch mistakes is doing us here at the U of A a favor. So please, don't apologize because I feel the effort is worth it.
I did find a scanner. I tried to attach on the last comment, but I don't think it worked. So I am going to try again here. Please let me know if you are having problems downloading them. I put the 3 slides I have of the specimen into a pdf document.
Also, when I looked at the letter addressed to Lowe, it left me wondering as well. However, that being said, I wonder if it somehow bypassed him and got cataloged. Hopefully the photos will prove to be helpful. Melanie
UAZ 52001a-c_github issue 13.pdf
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This is a specimen catalogued as Gyalopion quadrangulare, but purportedly from La Paz County, very far west of the cluster of Arizona localities for that species (all others are in Santa Cruz County). Is this possibly a misidentified Micruroides/Chionactis, or perhaps a misallocated Gyalopion quadrangulare?
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You can view the original detail page on VertNet. Here are the original record contents: