Change Perl icon on .{pl,pm} files

[bmeneg]

The Perl community have two well accepted "logos" for referring to the language itself, being the camel/llama and the onion from TPF (Perl Foundation). The current logo (icons/src/fullcolor/default/mimetypes/application-x-perl.svg) doesn't represent the forms recognized by the community. I would like to kindly ask a change of the current icon to something similar it was being used in previous theme systems, something close to https://icon-icons.com/icon/file-type-perl/130272 (used in VSCode and other distributions).

It was seen at Ubuntu 22.04, on Thunar file manager and originally posted at Reddit. Unfortunately I don't have the exact Yaru theme version, since I'm not the one reporting the issue and I don't really use the Yaru theme.

[bmeneg]

An example of such change would be as follows:

[oalders]

Please see https://dev.to/thibaultduponchelle/the-perl-complex-topic-of-logos-3161 for a discussion of the shadowed camel. http://neilb.org/2020/12/04/perl-and-camels.html is also quite helpful.

[Jupi007]

Hello @bmeneg and thanks for the report, I'm currently a bit busy, but I'll try to change that before the next ubuntu release.

[oalders]

Ping @neilb and @thibaultduponchelle in case you want to offer an opinion.

[bmeneg]

@oalders , although the overall logo discussion must be held to a broader audience, including TPF, the vast majority of tools already use the shadowed camel or the onion. Would you prefer to completely drop this change or let's keep it moving and keep the discussion elsewhere, i.e. p5 mailing list?

[oalders]

@bmeneg I think the change is an improvement and there is precedent for it. I just wanted to point out some pre-existing discussions about logos.

[bmeneg]

@oalders got it. And this is an important context too! Thanks for the input. It would be great to hear from @neilb and @thibaultduponchelle too.

[borisdaeppen]

I'm just dropping this here to showcase that it is not that hard to create something using another camel:

I used this as a source/template: https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Datei:Desert_(6).jpg (Licence seems good)

I made this in about an hour (inclusive image search). I do have the source files saved for now, if it helps.

[thibaultduponchelle]

Even if a bit unusual, I love this camel face but it's just another opinion 😄 And it's still a camel (revisited) after all 🐪

I'm a bit reluctant to replace this camel face and its nice license(s) (seems originally coming from Suru icon set and double licensed CC BY-SA 4.0 and GPLv3) by a "more accepted" but a bit "license problematic" shadowed camel derived from O'Reilly camel, even if it is de facto used in several places.

On the other hand, I'm very happy with what proposed @borisdaeppen (with better execution) even for broader usage.

[Jupi007]

If you allow me to give my opinion, I want to say that I really like our camel face.

But I'm not a perl user, so my comment may not be very useful 🙂

[borisdaeppen]

I noticed, that the "third" camel is a bit "long" (as in not "square")... maybe this one would be even better:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:07._Camel_Profile,_near_Silverton,_NSW,_07.07.2007.jpg

Maybe I can give it a try in about 8h from now. We'll see.

[thibaultduponchelle]

Like this?

[bmeneg]

I, personally, didn't like the camel face used because, at first glance, it didn't remember me a camel face at all, hahaha. Where are their weirdness, happiness and "feeling good" expressions on that image? At first, and ignoring the ears, it resembles me of a "not really happy" chimpanzee.

The camel picture linked by @borisdaeppen, on his last comment, would be a good reference to tell why the face icon doesn't look like a camel :D

I know that @oalders will give a talk on TPRC next week about overall community challenges and the logo question will be raised to the audience. We should come to a final decision about it, pass over it. Even the onion from TPF is a really good candidate (I really like it). But we need to get to a final point.

[oalders]

I just realized that this camel is very similar to the one used for the "about" link at learn.perl.org https://www.perl.org/learn.html

[neilb]

I've never liked the onion as a logo for Perl. I know the reference is "state of the onion", but there I thought it was (a) a joke on "state of the union", which only means something to Americans, and (b) a reference to both the language and the community around it.

I don't like the camel head, in large part because it took me way too long to realise that it was a camel's head :-)

Perl has a long association with camels, and it doesn't have enough of a vibrant / thriving community to pull off a logo change. And who has the right to select a new logo for the language / community. I certainly don't see TPF has the right. Perhaps the broader community might accept the PSC, but the PSC is focussed on the language, and probably don't want to get dragged into the whole logo mess.

I prefer a camel silhouette, and using one isn't going to incur displeasure from O'Reilly, given Tim's statement on the use of the camel.

[mohawk2]

As I understand it, O'Reilly has the IP rights to use of a camel for Perl, and would need to grant permission for use by others, even TPF. (Tim would need to do something more legally permanent like a formal grant of rights, unless he has already done so)

[oalders]

@mohawk2 after having just chatted with @neilb, my summary of his interpretation is that the camel's use for Perl cannot be used a) for nefarious purposes or b) on a book about Perl. Beyond that, we should be able to standardize on the shadowed camel and move on. The market for Perl books is basically a non-issue, so I don't see that as a problem.

[bmeneg]

@oalders if that's really the current state of camel's restrictions we should add that to perlfaq or Perl.org about page, so we can move forward and let the whole community know about it.

[oalders]

we should add that to perlfaq or Perl.org about page

Correct. This will mean convincing the various stakeholders. The PSC is up for re-election, so maybe we wait until the dust has settled there. Not sure the best way to tackle perl.org Apologies to @Jupi007 for hijacking this issue and turning into a community discussion. Probably this should move to a new location.

[bmeneg]

@oalders I completely agree with you, but since I'm a newbie wrt subjects related to Perl internals I'm not sure where we should move this discussion to. Would p5p mailing list be the correct place to get PSC attention, and possibly add a bullet on it to their agenda after elections?

[Jupi007]

@oalders for now there's no problem, but yeah this is maybe not the best place for this discussion 🙂

[oalders]

@bmeneg I've sent an email to the address listed on your profile. Maybe we can pick things up there.

[smonff]

I upgraded to Ubuntu 24.04 yesterday, and realized that the icon didn't change, and remembered of this conversation. Here is a little screenshot:

Let's compare the icons consistency with Numix ones:

Mmm, Gopher 👀 ...

I am asking: only on the graphic design aspect, does the Perl icon look like consistent with the rest of the icons? Do the other icons have a childish, funny icon (even the Go one doesn't use the Gopher mascot, despite it's an identified possible emblem for the language).

It looks inappropriate to associate something like Perl, that runs entire businesses, helps to operate systems, and manipulates data, with this funny drawing. I mean, I have nothing against the drawing by itself, but I wonder why Perl itself has to get that childish MIME icon. What's the story behind that?

[smonff]

I just realized that this camel is very similar to the one used for the "about" link at learn.perl.org https://www.perl.org/learn.html

The one on perl.org looks much more “professional”, I guess. It could be a good start for the Yaru icon, because it's much easier to insert in an icon than a full camel body, with neck and head.

At a larger size than the perl.org menu, it looks a bit like a chicken, though.

[oalders]

There has been some active Perl logo work over the past few months, so this is still a work in progress.