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unexpectedpanda / retool

Retool: a better filter tool for Redump and No-Intro DAT files.
BSD 3-Clause "New" or "Revised" License
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Sony PlayStation - Clone Cleanup #204

Closed retroNUC closed 2 years ago

retroNUC commented 2 years ago

Findings based on Sony - PlayStation (2022-04-30 01-34-37), I'll be back with more at some point...

Missing Clones

Missing Clones (With Additional Notes)

Incorrect Clones

retroNUC commented 2 years ago

Ticked off the simpler ones currently fixed in that pull request, might need someone else's judgement on the rest.

unexpectedpanda commented 2 years ago

Thanks! I'll take a look next time I'm updating the clone lists.

unexpectedpanda commented 2 years ago

I'm still working through the list, but I figured because I've spent too much time researching these titles, I should document it so I don't have to do the work again... 😅

Most of these are great, and I'll be adding them in shortly! As a heads up though, titles that are just updates are considered clones, despite content changes or gameplay tweaks. Retool's primary purpose is to try and select the one best version of a title. A Game of the Year edition with extra content and gameplay tweaks, for example, is still considered related to the original title, and outranks it. They're not considered different titles.

Usually I also consider reskins to be clones, especially if the experience is materially the same. That threshold is going to be different for different people -- but I have to draw the line somewhere. There are a few examples of this in the Game Boy set, where different licenses in different countries mean different hero sprites -- but the levels, music, and gameplay are otherwise identical. Then there are games where sprites change between versions for legal reasons. However, if we end up separating things whenever there are content differences, the collection starts expanding again, rather than slimming down. If people have a particular interest in a title and its regional/version differences, they can always apply an include filter.

There are exceptions of course. Sometimes best ends up being subjective, because the games industry and people are messy. I'm also not going to touch the multiple versions of fighting games and Yearly Sports Release With New Roster GameTM and try and rank one version above the other, because yikes.

What follows is some of the titles in your list that I think should stay related.

V-Ball - Beach Volley Heroes vs Chou Sentou Kyuugi Vanborg (Japan)

Basically, Chou Sentou Kyuugi Vanborg looks a lot like a reskin of V-Ball - Beach Volley Heroes with an extra intro video. After a few hours of play and research it seems like cosmetic tweaks the development team thought would go down well in a different market. Maybe a localized v1.1 versus a v1.0?

I should point out I might have missed something important when comparing these titles. I found out quickly I wasn't very good at the game, so needed to cross reference on YouTube to get extra information. My Japanese is also minimal, so it's not so easy to pick out all the differences. If you know of extra differences that might sway me to unlink them (for example, the opponents not being just reskins with different taunts), definitely let me know!

Courts in both games

Unique courts in V-Ball

Unique courts in Chou

unexpectedpanda commented 2 years ago

Culdcept - Expansion Plus vs Culdcept - Expansion

Plus just looks like an updated version from the outside.

Culdcept Expansion is an original fantasy board game for the Japanese Playstation that was released in Japan on May 1, 1999 for 5800 yen... It was followed by Culdcept Expansion Plus, a slightly newer version with a map editor that was sold for 2800 yen.

https://psxdatacenter.com/games/J/C/SLPM-86658.html

Culdcept's initial release was Japan-only on the Sega Saturn in 1997, and later, an upgraded port, Culdcept Expansion, was released on the PlayStation in 1999.1 This saw a re-release as Culdcept Expansion Plus in 2000.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culdcept

...then finally Plus came out the year after that, which is identical to Expansion bar the ability to use twenty maps that appear to have previously been for promotional use (there's a Famitsu map and some tournament maps in there).

http://kimimisblog.blogspot.com/2014/02/culdcept-expansion-plus.html

Looks like the cards are shared between the games too.

Marie no Atelier Plus - Salburg no Renkinjutsushi (Japan) vs Marie no Atelier - Salburg no Renkinjutsushi (Japan)

Plus is just an updated version of the original.

The PLUS version of the game, which was released on Playstation, contains all the features of Version 1.3, except the internal clock feature, since the Playstation lacks that capability. The only addition to the PLUS version was dualshock support.

https://psxdatacenter.com/games/J/A/SLPS-00856.html

Dave Mirra Freestyle BMX - Maximum Remix (USA) vs Dave Mirra Freestyle BMX (USA) (Rev 1)

Another updated version of the original here with extra content.

Maximum Remix adds new frills, in fact quite a lot of them -- new levels, new music, new tricks, and new stat-tracking categories -- but it doesn't change anything about the game on a fundamental level.

https://www.ign.com/articles/2001/06/25/dave-mirra-freestyle-bmx-maximum-remix

Dave Mirra Freestyle BMX: Maximum Remix is an enhanced and expanded version of the original Dave Mirra Freestyle BMX for the PlayStation. The title includes the remixed original game plus numerous feature upgrades, such as eight additional levels (20 total), new amateur, pro, and hard-core challenges, two new special characters, wall rides, and a brand-new expert mode.

https://www.amazon.com/Dave-Mirra-Freestyle-Maximum-Remix-Playstation/dp/B00005BIGF

retroNUC commented 2 years ago

Yeah, I suppose there's subjective flexibility when it comes to clones, but final call is always up to you - It's your database, after all! 🙂

For my own personal rule preferences:

Also, if you're documenting regional differences, I'd suggest submitting those to TCRF for greater visibility to the community.

retroNUC commented 2 years ago

Also, the comment on Atelier Marie - That quote compares the second PS1 release of the game ('Plus') against the sole Saturn release ('v1.3').

'Plus' compared with the original PS1 release (no title suffix) have more differences than just DualShock support, as it includes all the changes that were in the Saturn port, such as new endings, tweaks, etc. But I think by your definition, it's still a Clone.

unexpectedpanda commented 2 years ago

There's already functionality in Retool v2 (the ever ongoing background project) to point to different clone lists on the hard drive, and to download them from different locations. So it's entirely possible people can maintain different standards going forward if they wish. Whether people can be bothered doing that is another thing altogether :)

Also, if you're documenting regional differences, I'd suggest submitting those to TCRF for greater visibility to the community.

Region comparisons are definitely not something I'll be doing regularly, only when people have questions about choices I've made along the way. To do a proper job for TCRF, I'd need to spend a lot of time with each version of the game, and potentially have fluency in another language. I'll leave that for folks who are passionate enough about particular game series that they want to know all the differences :)

'Plus' compared with the original PS1 release (no title suffix) have more differences than just DualShock support, as it includes all the changes that were in the Saturn port, such as new endings, tweaks, etc. But I think by your definition, it's still a Clone.

Thanks for the extra detail! You're right about it still being a clone by my definition, but it helps to have accurate information all the same.

unexpectedpanda commented 2 years ago

Merged your PR in -- I'll need to update the hash.json then it should be available to everyone.