there’s no way to get from the handbook back to the main page

[jancborchardt]

A general header would be good, with the 5 points being permanently in there, so you can also see from other pages what else is there.

And at least as a quick fix, the island logo redirecting back to unhosted.org

[michielbdejong]

i was thinking keeping the nav on the left, and using that for everything. so then you get something like:

Overview i. definition ii. advantages iii. tools iv. events v. examples

Adventures:

1. intro
2. editor
3. (etc...)

Follow/discuss: rss atom mailing list irc twitter facebook ...

Sponsors: ...

[jancborchardt]

Sounds good as well. As long as there’s one thing which stays the same throughout all pages and allows you to go from any page to any other top page (including the frontpage) that’s good.

On Tue, Feb 5, 2013 at 3:49 PM, Michiel@unhosted notifications@github.comwrote:

i was thinking keeping the nav on the left, and using that for everything. so then you get something like:

Overview i. definition ii. advantages iii. tools iv. events v. examples

Adventures:

1. intro
2. editor
3. (etc...)

Follow/discuss: rss atom mailing list irc twitter facebook ...

Sponsors: ...

— Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHubhttps://github.com/unhosted/website/issues/31#issuecomment-13132390..

[michielbdejong]

it would be something like:

https://unhosted.org/staging/ https://unhosted.org/staging/events/ https://unhosted.org/staging/tools/ https://unhosted.org/staging/apps/

still looking for ways to refine this, and i'll add the 'advantages' thing from the other ticket

[jancborchardt]

Yeah, that’s much better. What still throws me off though is that the »No Cookie Crew« sidebar makes it look like you’re the only dude »doing unhosted« which is a bit weird, especially you always saying that there’s no leader in the movement. Having a peer group which is quite impossible to enter is maybe nice as private club, but not for an inclusive culture which we should foster.

On Wed, Feb 13, 2013 at 5:14 AM, Michiel@unhosted notifications@github.comwrote:

it would be something like:

https://unhosted.org/staging/ https://unhosted.org/staging/events/ https://unhosted.org/staging/tools/ https://unhosted.org/staging/apps/

still looking for ways to refine this, and i'll add the 'advantages' thing from the other ticket

— Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHubhttps://github.com/unhosted/website/issues/31#issuecomment-13473809.

[michielbdejong]

yeah, that's a bummer in itself. still, i'm hoping at least @nilclass and @silverbucket will be able to join within the next couple of months, because most parts are now in place and really the worst part is over. Life in the NCC is starting to be relatively OK now. :) and by Unhost'13 the rest of you guys will hopefully also be able to join, at least partially or whatever.

apart from that, you're right we should show more faces of unhosted web app developers on the website. i wanted to do that when i made the apps listing, but it somehow slipped. i'll create a separate ticket for that.

at least i consider this ticket about the missing navigation links resolved now.

[jancborchardt]

I’d say if showing anything, show contributors or unhosted web app devs. But not have a new exclusive inside club of which the membership benefit is maybe a smug feeling of »freedom« for yourself, leaving out others. Sorry if that sounds harsh, but I’d rather we list no one there. Of course you’re the article author and there it makes sense, but on every page in the sidebar is a little overkill don’t you think?

On Wed, Feb 13, 2013 at 5:12 PM, Michiel@unhosted notifications@github.comwrote:

yeah, that's a bummer in itself. still, i'm hoping at least @nilclasshttps://github.com/nilclassand @silverbucket https://github.com/silverbucket will be able to join within the next couple of months, because most parts are now in place and really the worst part is over. Life in the NCC is starting to be relatively OK now. :) and by Unhost'13 the rest of you guys will hopefully also be able to join, at least partially or whatever.

apart from that, you're right we should show more faces of unhosted web app developers on the website. i wanted to do that when i made the apps listing, but it somehow slipped. i'll create a separate ticket for that.

at least i consider this ticket about the missing navigation links resolved now.

— Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHubhttps://github.com/unhosted/website/issues/31#issuecomment-13501959.

[silverbucket]

Hi Michiel,

I support your endeavor (even though I take issue with some specifics) but for me - I don't think there's ever going to be a time I can join the no cookie crew, not that I don't agree with some of the merits behind it - but I think cookies are very useful in some cases. I don't like cookies that track me, I do like cookies that allow me to use the sites I use, without logging in each time. I understand there's a difference between a 3rd party middle-man and a direct service, but it's not always such a clear thing, and - for instance - I can't just refuse to use github or facebook directly. I don't think I could convince my band-mates that I can no longer help with promotion because I'm in a no cookie crew. :)

I also use SSH, IRC, and native (platform specific) programs all the time. I like some of them. Others I'd prefer unhosted web app solutions, and plan to help make them happen in some form, but I don't think restricting my cookie access will help that come along sooner, in fact might slow it down considerably for lack of collaboration.

I think the voyage of the blog posts explore some interesting concepts, but I don't think it makes sense to call this a no cookie crew, with members. I think it makes more sense to call it something like "an experiment in living completely unhosted" - kind of like the documentary 'super size me' (with better consequences, and less health problems). Considering the face that it's not possible to use facebook or github, etc. without cookies (as we've discussed before) it's kind of confusing, IMO, when you think critically about it.

I agree it shouldn't be a members club with a list. I think it should be your personal journey (after all, it's your blog).

On Wed, Feb 13, 2013 at 5:53 PM, Jan-Christoph Borchardt < notifications@github.com> wrote:

I’d say if showing anything, show contributors or unhosted web app devs. But not have a new exclusive inside club of which the membership benefit is maybe a smug feeling of »freedom« for yourself, leaving out others. Sorry if that sounds harsh, but I’d rather we list no one there. Of course you’re the article author and there it makes sense, but on every page in the sidebar is a little overkill don’t you think?

On Wed, Feb 13, 2013 at 5:12 PM, Michiel@unhosted notifications@github.comwrote:

yeah, that's a bummer in itself. still, i'm hoping at least @nilclass< https://github.com/nilclass>and @silverbucket https://github.com/silverbucket will be able to join within the next couple of months, because most parts are now in place and really the worst part is over. Life in the NCC is starting to be relatively OK now. :) and by Unhost'13 the rest of you guys will hopefully also be able to join, at least partially or whatever.

apart from that, you're right we should show more faces of unhosted web app developers on the website. i wanted to do that when i made the apps listing, but it somehow slipped. i'll create a separate ticket for that.

at least i consider this ticket about the missing navigation links resolved now.

— Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHub< https://github.com/unhosted/website/issues/31#issuecomment-13501959>.

— Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHubhttps://github.com/unhosted/website/issues/31#issuecomment-13504244.

[michielbdejong]

the blog layout is copied/inspired/stolen from http://blog.nodejitsu.com/new-nodejitsu-handbook btw, i think it makes it way nicer to read a blogpost if there's a photo of the person writing next to it. but yeah you're right, only on the blog pages.

the 'author' (and also the 'follow') things in the sidebar are only applicable to the pages that are blogposts, that had slipped in through copy-paste negligence, sorry. i fixed that in staging now.

i also renamed the 'No Cookie Crew' header back to 'Author', as indeed that makes more sense. i had moved the NCC mention there from the header subline, mainly just so that it wouldn't be gone altogether.

so there is now no mention of the NCC except nested inside the text, as sadly none of you is willing to join yet. ;)

[michielbdejong]

@silverbucket i agree, it's very much like super size me, only two differences: it's not temporary, and it will (some day!) grow out to more people.

about facebook see episodes 5 and https://www.facebook.com/unhostedwebapps which is updated through sockethub. you could do that for your band (i'm not saying it's easy, just that it's possible). it's only friend request management and highlighting posts that still can't be done through their api. and about github, that's queued for episode 11, so soon no excuse there either. if you feel that the apps we have are not good enough for you to use, then that should be a reason to go fix them.

i understand that you don't want to give up all hosted and native apps, but can't you use at least one? if you, as its author, don't send your email through sockethub, then who will?

for now, just me i guess. :)

[silverbucket]

On Wed, Feb 13, 2013 at 6:49 PM, Michiel@unhosted notifications@github.comwrote:

@silverbucket https://github.com/silverbucket i agree, it's very much like super size me, only two differences: it's not temporary, and it *will

• (some day!) grow out to more people.

about facebook see episodes 5 and https://www.facebook.com/unhostedwebappswhich is updated through sockethub. you could do that for your band (i'm not saying it's easy, just that it's possible). it's only friend request management and highlighting posts that still can't be done through their api. and about github, that's queued for episode 11, so soon no excuse there either. if you feel that the apps we have are not good enough for you to use, then that should be a reason to go fix them.

i understand that you don't want to give up all hosted and native apps, but can't you use at least one? if you, as its author, don't send your email through sockethub, then who will?

for now, just me i guess. :)

Where did I say I wasn't going to use unhosted web apps or sockethub? ... and as for working on unhosted apps to fix them or make them better - that's what we're all doing here right? It's odd to me that you'd imply I don't want to use unhosted apps.

Maybe you're missing the crux of my point. I'm not making excuses for why I can't join the no cookie crew, I'm saying I don't think that's what we are doing as a group -- I don't think it's about about cookies (and, as a side note, the name doesn't make sense, since you are still using cookies both on your server and in your browser) -- I thought unhosted was a better way to convey the concept, and thought that's what we were all already a part of. (?)

The extras you've created under the name of the no cookie crew are things like... If I use ssh, vlc, gedit, the unix command-line, anything except a web-browser, then I'm violating your rules. Saying that the problem with github or facebook is that they give you a cookie, is misleading because you've mentioned that cookies are fine, as long as it's not from a site acting as an intermediary between two parties... so, on that note, if I go to a site like kiva.com and donate money to someone looking for small business loans, since kiva is acting as an intermediary between two parties, then it violates your rules. I don't agree with that extra stuff, I think there are some interesting underlying technical implications, but it's not the way for me to approach the issue.

I hope this helps to clarify what i meant. -Nick

[michielbdejong]

sorry, i didn't mean to imply that it's wrong to use hosted or desktop apps. i'm just saying that it will slow down development because if you don't use what you build, then you don't get to see what issues are important and which issues can wait, so you're basically shooting in the dark. i think we all agree that we should dogfood "as much as is practically doable". right now, that is still painfully close to zero, which is why launching the NCC was an overly optimistic move of me at this point (thanks for correcting this), but we'll get there over the next year or two.

at Unhost'13 we can do an "I used X and it wasn't that bad" session, and i'm sure that by then a few people will have started using the music app or the editor or vidmarks instead of spotify or gedit or youtube's hosted app. And if not, then we'll just repeat next year. and one day, also non-developers will use the apps we build. This plan will not fail and is not off the table. :)

Building and using unhosted web apps for everything is indeed an "extra thing" as you say on top of building and using them only for the most obviously fitting use cases, and i understand now that none of you are ready for it yet.

so let's turn this around, and ask, if not all, then which unhosted web apps would you use in a web browser? and if not github and facebook, as you say, then which platform would you use through sockethub instead of preferring hosted or desktop apps for them? any specific favorites you think are ready for dogfooding either now or soon?