Heavy AP weapons very weak

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What is the expected output? What do you see instead?
Higher AP weapons should deal more damage.  Currently the hammers/axes deal no 
dmg and cost 6-10AP.  Would love to see a damage multiplier on these weapons 
based off of BASE character damage.  

What version of the product are you using? On what operating system?
0.6.7

Please provide any additional information below.

Hammers should have a multilpier of 2 and axes 1.5 based off current AP costs 
should even them out. Make sure its off the base character damage, ir the 
damage rings could really make the weapons over powered.

Original issue reported on code.google.com by justin.m...@gmail.com on 30 Dec 2010 at 11:24

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I like this ideas.

Original comment by SamuelPl...@gmail.com on 30 Dec 2010 at 11:27

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Of course, also means adjusted price.
But the main idea -- having equally powerful weapons with different 
characteristics is there.

There is one more thing. This multiplier should be applied to the damage 
modifier as well as weapon damage. Otherwise, it makes no sense, really.

Also, AP 5 means you can move after an attack if you have JoF (-1 AP), while 
AP6 + JoF means 2 attacks without the possibility to move. This should be 
considered as well.

- AP7+      x 3.0 damage = 1 attack  x 3   ~ 3x damage, NO attack+move 
                                                    (but free to use any amulet!)
- AP6 + JoF x 1.5 damage = 2 attacks x 1.5 ~ 3x damage, NO attack+move
- AP5 + JoF x 1.5 damage = 2 attacks x 1.5 ~ 3x damage, or attack + move
- AP4 + JoF x 1   damage = 3 attacks x 1   ~ 3x damage, or attack + move
- AP3 + JoF x 1   damage = 5 attacks x 1   ~ 5x damage, or 2 attacks + move 

IMO it's still the AP4 or AP3 that are best. Unless, of course, you have better 
idea than JoF. (inherent crit on axes and hammers could change the picture, 
however)

An alternative recommendation:
- have 5-10% crit. threat (as in d20) for all weapons.
- have slow weapons x3 or even x4 crit damage
- may be combined with basic multiplier, e.g. hammers x2 damage, 5% x4 crit 
damage whereas most weapons x1 / 5% / x2.

For those who are unfamiliar with crit threat concept:
- make attack roll
- if it is a hit, and a significant one (i.e. the attack roll was 95% or above 
AND successful), make another attack roll.
- if the second roll is also a hit, deal critical damage (x2, x3, x4 depending 
on weapon)
- if the second roll is a miss, deal normal damage (mostly x1; hammers x2 in 
the example above)

Original comment by surrano on 3 Jan 2011 at 9:29

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Thanks for the report, good points. This is something that we should consider 
when creating new items. I totally agree that weapons that have higher AP cost 
should have some other benefit that makes up for it. Higher DMG or crit chance 
are good ideas.

There was another thing I was thinking about when reading the above. Critical 
damage could be way overpowered once we start ramping up the amount of dmg 
dealt by weapons. It might already be, considering there are +6DMG rings 
available. Should we change the critical damage so that it is only applied to 
the base damage range? I'm also considering lessning the effeckt on the +6 DMG 
rings.

Original comment by oskar.wi...@gmail.com on 9 Jan 2011 at 8:05

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Current critical damage with +DMG rings are indeed not the normal way, but 
without it I am not sure I could have completed the Prison Warden quest (I've 
60HP). Like damage reduction, +DMG is normally applied as 2nd final damage 
calculation and final step is -DR.

Original comment by kims...@gmail.com on 9 Jan 2011 at 9:16

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In d20 games, critical does apply to all scalar modifiers of the damage roll, 
and it is balanced there. The differences are
- it is hard to get a +6 damage in d20, though typical mid-level monsters have 
far less than 90 hp...
- all creatures gain hp for each level, while here character can gain either hp 
or something else
- crit. chance is typically 5-10% in d20, 0-20% here
- in d20, crit applies for scalar modifiers, but not extra dice, e.g. special 
attacks, elemental damage, poison, etc. This is irrelevant here, though.

I think it could work; the only problem is that +dmg rings are too cheap.
Maybe +1/+2 should be 1000/1500 gp, and ramp up from this point.
+1 - 1000
+2 - 1500
+3 - 2500
+4 - 4000
+5 - 6500
+6 - 10500

Even then, around 15th or 20th level one can easily buy 2 rings +6.
Another question is, how steeply the monsters will get harder; you should 
decide what should be an average difficulty level of a dungeon. For my best 
effort, prison is hard but by far not impossible at level 11 and a good place 
to collect xp and gold afterwards. So if you meant it to be a challenge (but 
not a deadly one) for level 15, you are on right track, without modifications.

Original comment by surrano on 9 Jan 2011 at 2:41

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IMO applying critical damage only to the base damage is a good idea.

Quote: "I'm also considering lessning the effeckt on the +6 DMG rings."
Noooooo! ;-)

Original comment by SamuelPl...@gmail.com on 13 Jan 2011 at 10:19

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So we basically agree that multiplying 2 rings +6 is a bit too steep.
We could go on the way in-between.
Multiply base damage = character level bonus + weapon damage
Do not multiply magic damage = rings

In general for all modifiers: for each particular modifier, it could be 
specified whether it is basic, extraordinary, supernatural or magic.
- weapon AC / DAM  and armour BC is basic.
- character level / skill benefit is typically basic or extraordinary.
- some monsters have supernatural strength or toughness
- most magic items and spells are magic

Then we can say things like "crit multiplier applies only to basic and 
extraordinary modifiers" To keep things fair AND simple, I suspect this is the 
farthest we can go.

It makes things more complicated, but we might say that certain crit 
multipliers themselves are supernatural (e.g. venomous: 20% x3). These do NOT 
multiply any modifiers, only weapon damage. But personally, I do not like this 
version ;)

Original comment by surrano on 17 Jan 2011 at 8:31

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As new weapons are created, we should see less of an obvious advantage to 
smaller/faster weapons.  New heavy AP weapons should cause greater damage in 
addition to your base attack damage. As is stands today the swift dagger causes 
only your base damage, but the steel sword only causes 3-7 HP more damage.  In 
my opinion the damage a weapon causes should be a multiple of your base damage. 

Let's say your base damage is X:

swift dagger AP = 3, damage = X - 1.5X
steel sword  AP = 4, damage = 1.5X - 2X
Hammer       AP = 6, damage = 2X - 3X

etc...

Original comment by joeybea...@gmail.com on 18 Jan 2011 at 7:37

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Critical damage should be based on your base weapon damage.

Original comment by sdeva...@gmail.com on 10 Feb 2011 at 1:52

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I don't think that the rings themselves are too expensive (at least not early 
game). For my current character, I did the math and the +15% accuracy ring was 
a bigger help to me than a +2 damage ring for any enemy with a block chance of 
15% or higher. It costs half as much.

I like the idea of x1.5 or x2 damage multipliers, because my buffed base damage 
well outweighs the base damage of the weapons, so extra attacks are more 
important. However, one should keep in mind how it is extra significant when 
pitted against enemies with damage reduction.

Original comment by jch...@email.wm.edu on 5 Apr 2011 at 4:18

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Something to consider -- how do you want the players natural damage to work 
with criticals?  For instance, I am now done playing with my second character.  
For this one, who finished by taking the dagger of the Shadowpriests at level 
24, I have simply taken +1 damage every level-up until my natural damage was 
20.  I'm wearing 2  poilished rings of backstabbing now, and was using 
Flagstones Pride for most of my existence. Life went very, very, well for this 
character despite the small number of hitpoints, and no natural blocking 
ability whatsoever.  It's quite pleasant.  But is this something you want to 
encourage, or something you consider unbalanced?  Definitely the first thing I 
wanted to do after my first run through the game was to build another 
character, and this time not try to balance the levelups.  Now, of course, I 
want to see how a purely defensive character, all barkskinned up plays.

I think this is rather more fun than playing the same dungeon for weeks on end 
looking for legendary items, though I must admit I would dearly love to have 
one.

Original comment by 160...@gmail.com on 30 Nov 2011 at 9:05

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ooops, typo, I am a level 34 character who has just taken the dagger of the 
Shadow priests, not level 24 as I wrote.  Sorry about that.  I did spend the 
first 21 levelups on +1 damage, though.

Original comment by 160...@gmail.com on 30 Nov 2011 at 9:30

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Original comment by oskar.wi...@gmail.com on 28 Oct 2012 at 7:38

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