Channel Blocked

[TruthEdge]

Hello,

It seems that after recent download there is a big issue .

I'm sending to 13 Numbers , those 13 numbers have the Channel added on their contact list . We are already using the API the a real client to send presence/ sync to contact which i'm sending to / send typing message/sending message/send presence un-available / channel disconnect .

Exactly after 6-9 numbers the Channel would be blocked from Whatsapp .

What is wrong with the new API ? we was working on this before and didn't faced any issue .

And Shiriko, Don't give me the spam lecture, i'm sending to 13 numbers & i do have the sending number pre-saved on all mobiles .

What is going wrong ?

Regards

[ganySA]

I must admit, i am experiencing a problem now with blocking as well. I have read a lot on the forums. I had no problems since March this year, and i sent over 10 000 messages.

The message are all legitimate and not spam (they are appointment reminders for patients) and i offer this as a free service to doctors. The message content is also quite simple:

"Please remember your appointment with Dr xxx xxxxxx tomorrow at Date + Time."

It was incredibly strange how i got blocked the first time round. At 2pm i normally send off the messages, last Thursday at 2:05pm the first number was blocked. The following day at around 7:15am the second number was blocked and at 7:30am the third number was blocked.

What is strange is that at 7:15 and 7:30 i dont even think those numbers were sending anything!

Today i bought a new number and again processed the reminders for tomorrow. 77 messages and within 1 minute blocked.

Its very bizarre how this blocking is working.

[Saeger]

@ganySA Just change the pattern of the message. Its obivously that they put a pattern for message like yours from "new numbers" or something like that.

Just put something like: "Dear Patient: You are scheduled with Dr XXXXXX tomorrow at 09:00pm" (if its tomorrow, you dont need to put the tomorrow`s date, try doing some logic like that).

GL.

[TruthEdge]

@Saeger , not it's not like that because we are sending different messages with pre-saved number on receiver side .

The max i could get was 21 message before channel get blocked.

Making sure we are sending a message per 20+ minutes , we are syncing contact before sending around 1 hour+ we are requesting lastseen & display pic + our channel are having display picture + status + name .....

I am not at all flooding any system so basic my channel is sending less than 5 messages in a hour :(

Any thoughts ?

Regards

[assegaf]

@TruthEdge Dont blame sirioko or any of this api.

I ever make a bot running monkey scripting on emulator android to sync contact and send message tru whatsapp official client, blocked after about 11 messages.

do you understand what it means.

[TruthEdge]

It's not a blame, I've been in this script and i'm trying to run it as much as human it can be .

we are doing all human steps sending less than 5 messages in an hour

There is some functions in the script for example 1- Clean dirty, i notice it's working 1st run when the server issue a dirty command to a channel the channel will auto response with cleandirty. 2- The pong request, i'm not sure it's functioning as with all the debug i made to the channels never had a ping/pong request .

I do save some of the outputs for debuging if somebody want to help .

Regards

[ganySA]

I would just like to add some of my own assumptions to this post in case they are helpful to people in their search:

1) i have run my own custom API it is very old, at least 10 months old and it has worked properly without any problems. The only thing i have used this and the .net port for is registration because those processes changed. This makes me wonder about some of the assumptions being made around "extra" packets that are causing the block - if this was the cause i think i would have been blocked a long time ago as my API is definitely the simplest form from 10 months ago before any whatsapp updates.

2) I have never made use of ANY of the other functions except for sending messages. No contact synch, or anything like that which i see mentioned. Again if this was a "check" i would have failed this months ago.

3) I have sent 10k messages to approximately 7.5k different numbers over a period of 10 months, at a frequency as follows: a) When someone makes an appointment with a doctor, it sends them a message confirming that their appointment time and date is correct (people get confused on the phone). This happens as the administrator captures the appointment so possibly 1 message every 5 minutes. b) The day before their appointment it sends them a reminder - this is a batch mode update so its starts sending around 2pm in the afternoon, and currently it would send between 50-200 messages. These messages were load spread over 3 numbers.

My theory: Banning by other users raises a red flag on a number. Doctor administrators do sometimes make mistakes and hence will send a message erroneously to someone, i did receive one or two complaints and address it with the doctors, but i think this is where MY problem started - some users will start "banning" a specific number. In my case if out of the 10 000 messages lets say 30 different numbers banned my number. Once the ban count for a specific number reaches a certain count think the number is 'flagged' as a possible abuse number. This makes logical sense because, if you are a spammer, quite a few people will block you hence the ban count would rise and raise the red flag.

This is where all the couple of things start happening: a) some sort of analysis is done on the messages sent by that number b) a message mask is created for the types of messages sent by that number c) they look at messages from other numbers probably using some sort of clever filtering by country/ip or something and identify other numbers that have sent messages that meet that message mask they then systematically start banning the numbers that have in the past sent messages which match that mask as well as the frequency - possibly even look at a clever algorithm that checks what % of the messages sent by a user match message mask. If you were automated it would be 99% if you are a normal user it might be a few 1-2% anyone over the threshold in a certain period of time is banned.

The think using a combination of IP, Message Count per second, specific Message Mask or a numbers ban count these variables are used to kill "other" numbers that match the criteria.

Im going to go buy 20-30 sims tomorrow and do some testing.

The reason why i dont believe this has anything to do with the version of whatsapp OR the API or anything like that is because i live in Africa, here the majority of the people using whatsapp have pretty old phones which might have some version of whatsapp but who never update it. If they were sending "hidden" packets they would be killing like thousands of subscribers erroneously.

[jonnywilliamson]

@ganySA I think you have an interesting story. I enjoyed reading that and I think it sounds like a very good use case for the use of whatsapi.

I have some of my own ideas on what might be happening but I do have a feeling that the overall solution to this problem really lies with our ability to contact and negotiate some sort of compromise with WhatsApp owners/developers.

Unless we can come to some sort of agreement with WhatsApp and have some mechanism where by we abide by their non-phone connection rules to send messages but in return our numbers will not be blocked - we will continue this cat and mouse game for months to come.

I've already tried to make contact with the developers a couple of months before - but alas I've not had a response to my initial query.

I myself have been lucky in that none of my numbers have been blocked - but then again these numbers only send to a very few other numbers and not in any type of bulk so perhaps I'm still under the radar.

Only time will tell....

[TruthEdge]

@ganySA , How many numbers are you trying to send to ?

My self a new number --> Added + Synced on receiver mobiles = Blocked on message no.8 while sending message each 5+ minutes .

Regards :D

[jonnywilliamson]

@TruthEdge - I'd like to know:

What if you were to buy a sim card (not just get a number) and pop it into a phone, purchase whatsapp via an app store and use it for a few messages THEN remove the sim card get your password using WART and continue sending messages from whatsAPI.

How long til blocking then....so for me it's been no blocks at all.

[TruthEdge]

@jonnywilliamson , I have get 3 numbers , registered now on Mobiles and chatting with my self lol .

I'll keep it till tomorrow and switch them into channels to check what will happen .

Regards

[ganySA]

@jonnywilliamson thanks, i fully agree i also tried contacting them they replied saying they do not provide such a service. This was over a year go. I really think they should open up a 'business' division and people should apply with a template of what the message are they will be sending with a strict terms of service, i know many people would be happy to pay 0.2-0.5c (US) per message thats revenue to them instead of the stupid 1 dollar per year nonsense. It would be great competition for SMS, and the pre-arranged message format would ensure there is no spam.

@jonnywilliamson - i buy sim cards although i have not registered the numbers with their official tool, i am not sure it makes a difference.. but something i can try this week.

@TruthEdge - i sent to over 7500 different numbers (every patient has a different number)

The more i think about it the more i am certain, that initially to find someone sending is difficult, but once they identify a person, they aggressively monitor the IP / Message format in a geography to block numbers.

Maybe i should give one of you guys an SA number and you can try see if you have better luck.

[shirioko]

http://blog.whatsapp.com/index.php/2012/06/ pretty much explains why they don't allow companies and businesses to use their services for anything other than personal use. WhatsApp is intended to interact with your friends and family, end of story. It is NOT a platform for companies to circumvent email spam filters and avoid paying for SMS messages.

[ganySA]

@shirioko i think you have misunderstood my intentions vs what that article describes

The article describes why you dont want spam. There is a huge difference between a message that is RELEVANT (personal) to you as an individual and SPAM (unsolicited, completely unpersonal). Think about my simple reminder app for doctors.

How often do you think people forget their appointments? do you not think they would want a reminder? Or maybe they simply forgot what time their appointment... is it 2 or 3pm....

You should see how often people asked my whatsapp number for directions or the contact number for a specific doctor.

I am not spamming "hey you just won a million dollars" or "hey do you know you can get a new BMW for 3% less" there are certain messages that will always add "value" to you as a person, specifically where its a personal message to you an individual and not you " the consumer". Like for example when your car is ready to be collect from repairs, or maybe that your international parcel from DHL is now in the country, or maybe that the gym where you train doesnt have electricity or hot water due to renovations - the list is pretty much endless. SMS is an archaic delivery platform, even more so on a global scale where prices just go up for international sms' not to mention the ridiculous local costs for 160 characters of text.

People and companies like whatsapp need to start thinking bigger. Sure they need to get rid of the idiots who spam ads but personalised relevant messaging, its a market that is yet to explode and its really where Whatsapp or other companies can legitimately make some money without having the backlash of being SPAM.

This whole thing could be done in a controlled legitimate manner. Where a company submits a template of what their messages would look like as an approved template and then simple variables in the template would be allowed to change as messages are submitted. That way whatsapp have complete control over what is being sent from "business" customers, and most of all if done right can generate a lot of revenue for them in a great way.

A yearly API fee of 100 dollars, 0.5c (USD) per message whatever..... Think about the revenue possibilities... and if they really are worried about people who are fretting for their privacy or SPAM , build in a simple On/Off switch that prevents notification messages from being sent to you or just tell people to block the number, 99.9% of the people will be grateful to get the messages 0.0x% wont.

Finally in situation where there is so much growing competition they need to get corporates onboard, not only from a financial point of view but a complete buy in point of view. If people know that more and more legitimate "services" will notify you of relevant messages on whatsapp than on any other platform, people will buy into whatsapp even more seriously.

We have to think more open mindedly, SMS has been around for 25 years, it cannot be the best way to interact with people on a personal level with legitimate messages, its simply cannot.

[g0g0l]

Well guys i have a piece of information here. I have saw some sites are allowing people to send hundreds and thousands of messages from one number. Quite by chance, a few days ago I came to know one of those sites uses venomous API. That very site has a limitation of 40 messages from one channel per hour (per hour? that's weird) and they told me their channels are not getting blocked before at least 1000 messages (if not so, they could not run the business). Here i am getting blocked after 12 messages @shirioko don't tell me i am spamming, 12 messages are not spam and also i sent to my friend circle only none of whom flagged it "block". Anybody got any idea how are they doing it?

[TruthEdge]

@g0g0l , Bibaswan May i ask what is the site you are referring to ?

Regards

[ganySA]

@g0g0l i am almost certain that there is a method by which they "flagg" someone don't know how they identify you initially for the flagged list. But it makes sense because they cannot possibly monitor everything.

Once a phone number gets flagged i think they do something like the following: 1) They check the original IP + then look at all other 'channels' that used that IP 2) They create a "message" template based how your message looks like and use that as a means to filter other messages on other IPs 3) They flag all 'channels' from that IP and detect the message send rate to pick up further abuse 4) Finally i think they look at a channel and do an analysis of how many messages are sent vs messages received if you are only sending to a large number of recipients then you are also blocked.

But as i said in my first sentence, this only happens once you are identified. Some people are and do still get away with sending many many many messages.

I just found out the cellphone companies here are selling sims here on promotion during december (500 sims for 1 dollar). So i am happy to provide people with some sims tomorrow for testing if you would like.

[g0g0l]

@TruthEdge i cannot publicly say the name as the site owner is my friend. He told his business secret because of our friendship. you can email me if you want to make some research on this site @ganySA i agree with you on the 4th point because i saw when a channel gets replies, it stays a little longer I don't know about the rest, but is there really anything to do about that above points?

[TruthEdge]

@g0g0l , Bibaswan i have you on skype , please come on .

Regards

[jonnywilliamson]

There's a bad smell starting to emulate from this thread....

[ganySA]

@jonnywilliamson why!!!??

i bought 20 more sims to do some testing i have stripped absolutely everything except the most basic message, there is no reference to anything in the messages and i will see how it goes tomorrow.

Im not a spammer i wanna smell good :D

[TruthEdge]

@jonnywilliamson , I advice you to close your nose lol :)

What bad smell are you talking about ?

[shirioko]

I love how every other comment mentions my name trying to justify their behavior :')

We have to think more open mindedly, SMS has been around for 25 years, it cannot be the best way to interact with people on a personal level with legitimate messages, its simply cannot.

I disagree. Telephony has been around for 100+ years and speech for 4000+ years, so why would some new hype be "the best way" to do anything?

The best part about WhatsApp is that it is personal. There is always someone on the other side of the chat. You can see when they're online, you can see when they're typing, you can see when they've read your messages. Having an automated script sending "personalized messages" (i.e. as personal as any random email message) defeats the whole purpose.

If you want to reach a customer just use email, and if you want to reach them immediately use SMS or call them. These are solid and proven platforms (been around for >25 years) which you can use and abuse as much as you want.

And about the paid business plans: if WhatsApp was actually interested in money they would have sold their company to Facebook a long time ago, right now they don't even care if the users pay them or not..

[ganySA]

@shirioko its pointless arguing about this. But if i were to bet, i'd put money on the fact that SMS in the next 10-20 years will have an indescribably small user base. Its plain text, limited in size, has no ability to really attach any media of value or geographical data. Provides no means for real time two way communication. Its archaic.

Morse code was around for years and years, i guess we should have stuck with that too, might have made a cool techno sound if we all got together to have a conversation.

[ganySA]

After a week of testing. I have about 6-7 numbers that are working with stability. I think the biggest trick is regarding message content. If you have any reference to a static item... such as a website/business name or anything like that i believe you will be blocked very quickly. The more generic and normal your messages look with no form of advertising then i believe you will be fine.

[tstanbur]

Hi @ganySA are your numbers still working ok?

If so, how did you register them ? on a handset first? and if so the same handset for each SIM ? did you send/receive messages on the native handset WhatsApp before using WhatsAPI?

Sorry for all the questions, I have a very similar setup/purpose to you and want to avoid getting blocked.

Any advice appreciated.

Thanks, Tom

[nandorossetti]

I think the trick is to change the hash to the message, if you change the contents of the message for each send, WhatsApp will not ban you.

EDIT: Not working.

[wickedguy]

What about YOUR number sending to hundreds of numbers and not ONE of them respond back? Could this be a possible filter?