Should we return to chemists and CMOs being the only ones with access to chemistry?

[Probe1]

2010-2014: Chemist was an important job and we had many notable chemists.

November 2014: Badclown removes chloral and gives everyone but paramedics chemistry access

December 2014: Pomf returns and we get chloral back

2016: Chemists are muscled out by half the station walking in to replace them. Quality players play doctor since it has chemist built into it but without the expectation of doing a thorough job.

Is it time we go back and return Chemist to a real part of Medbay?

[KingofHONK]

Another note on the chemistry content in general: just as an example for an idea that would make chemistry more attractive is to add a research component similar to that of genetics and virology: add new chemical reactions that complex and unstable in nature that are RNG based, but have strong benefits to medbay as a whole. A pill that could mend broken bone and save precious time from a surgery. You could even add traitor elements and make some strong antag pills as well.

I know that you say "when you code it" when shit like this is brought up but cutting content or as it seems to be called "balancing" is not the right answer and is frankly lazy. I stopped playing chem as much as I used to because my job ends in 15 minutes. Experimental drugs and shit would be so fucking cool to have and give me something to do after the mix is done.

[ghost]

@Fruktlimpa Maybe as I have said before Medbay should be changed to not be so reliant on Chemistry. The way you want things sounds boring. Why dont we just remove chemistry completely and put the chem dispensers in the middle of med bay and let the doctors deal with it. Or just remove miners and let the science shuttle go to the outpost and let them get their own supplies?

[Fruktlimpa]

@Secish What the hell do you mean boring? Do you find the current medbay system boring? Because it is how I want it to be. Chems and medbay are deeply intertwined, you would have to redesign a lot of things if you want doctors to work well without chems.

Out of curiosity how much do you play medbay? Because there are already a few people in this very issue that doesn't know jack about medbay but still wants to change it up like they know how it works and it is extremely frustrating.

[ghost]

@Fruktlimpa At the end of the day I just think Chemists should have a fair shot at doing their job before everyone else in medbay jumps in and does it for them. Which is hard to do with so many people hardcore powergaming wanting the tubes filled and fridge stocked within 2 minutes or they are coming in and doing it for you.

EDIT: Also I have played medbay a lot and have felt the pain of having no chemist which is why I don't like relying so fervently on chemistry or Genetics. Doctors should have something very basic to get them by if there is neither.

[despotate]

Can you perform all of chemistry without moving from your seat? I get the feeling the job is so routine that you could automate all of it by using an autohotkey script.

[Kammerjunk]

Assuming you have plasma near you, say 5u in a small beaker in your pocket, and not counting running out of energy in the chem dispenser, yeah, but don't do it

[despotate]

I'm not gonna implement that idea, it just illustrates what the job really is: the exact same routine of button clicking every time.

[kilozombie]

Again, insider info, chemistry may receive some new reagents sometime soon, but until then... yeah. I used to main Chemist for many many hours and basically the only fun part was making drugs by mixing existing reagents in specific amounts. Doing the 15 minutes of autism at roundstart? I never did that, especially on servers where it wasn't the norm. It's just a slog. On /vg/ I played CMO and basically after chemistry is done nobody wants to touch the room unless they want fun chems.

[despotate]

chemistry may receive some new reagents sometime soon

Oh boy, more clicking!

[PJB3005]

@despotate If I wanted to I could literally make an automatic script do all of chemistry for me as fast as my connection allows me to. It's all BYOND macros and hrefs.

[kilozombie]

Actually, you'd get certain ingredients for the reagents from outside of Medbay, and others would require a lot of micromanagement with tons of different reagents meaning you need, like, pill bottles and organization and shit and can't just make it in one beaker.

[ghost]

@despotate this entire game is clicking, what are you going on about?

[despotate]

Most of the clicking in this game has variety, RNG, or involves other players, who are unpredictable and fun.

Chemistry is literally the exact same stuff every time. Adding more reagents just makes the list of buttons to click longer rather than more interesting. edit: I wrote this part without having read kilozombie's reply

@kilozombie Your ideas are good.

[ghost]

@despotate how is R&D any different? How is surgery any different? its just clicking on someone or something in a specific order every time.

[kilozombie]

I don't know what to tell you @despotate An entire chemistry research system is a big old WYCI and I'd rather have interesting expansions to what we already have. What if Chemistry had to team up with Botany for some good meds? What if Chemistry had to grind strange items for some good meds? What if Chemistry had to go through immense effort and think-tanking in order to make the toppest tier of meds?

[despotate]

Yeah @kilozombie I just read your ideas and they're what I had in mind for breaking the monotony of chemistry. I'm just saying that adding more reagents to the chem dispenser doesn't fundamentally solve the problem, but obviously that's not what you're going for. Honestly, if I wanted to maximize fun, the first thing I'd WYCI is remove/cripple the chem dispenser and make its reagents something you have to find/get supplied elsewhere. But that's none of my business, I don't look at or play chemistry.

@Secish R&D also has the same problem as chemistry, you can macro the entire thing because there's no actual variety or fun involved in the "set up" time. Surgery is a bit less so because you're racing against time, often working with incomplete information, and most patients all come in with different injuries. A lot of departments have start-up overhead that's really boring and needs to be replaced or cut out.

[kilozombie]

My favorite times playing Scientist were when I knew almost nothing about the job on a different serb and thought I'd have to steal/"borrow" shit from everywhere in order to get the right research. That was fun, but R&D is already currently unreliable. A lot of rounds will end up with no research being done, despite it being easy, just because it is monotonous.

[Kurfursten]

@Skullyton @Probe1 I would be interested in seeing it be a toggle available to command staff. The captain can currently unrestrict maintenance access at any time he wants from the command console, as if it were a radstorm. It would be interesting to see the command staff have available some options such as

• Skeleton Crew - Current access
• Stable Crew - Pre-Badclown access
• Emergency - Security has increased access

etc

[Probe1]

That was an idea I wished for a long time ago and it would be nice to see it implemented in that way.

[nuklearcellphoneg]

Y e s

[nuklearcellphoneg]

Ideally though, maybe if there are no chemists/cmo, then it all should have access, if that's possible.

[nuklearcellphoneg]

Overall though, I think too many people have way too much access... why does the Clown get maint?

[Probe1]

that's actually a rather good question and one I don't have an answer to.

[ghost]

There has been a bit of access inflation/powercreep over the years. Should we tone back on it? Maybe. But I think that honestly MDs having access to chemistry is a massive improvement to the medical bay, so this, if nothing else, should stay.

[Fruktlimpa]

The reason a lot of chemists stopped maining chemist is not only because MDs started muscling them out. Like a lot of people have already said, chemistry has no end game at all and is very quickly done with and it takes a while for it to be needed again, which causes the issue with chemists fucking off or only new, inexperienced players taking on the role. The role is fundamentally flawed yet it is vital for medbay, restricting it will cause asshurt on all sides.

If you are serious about doing this then at least implement the "No chemist, MDs get access" function because otherwise it is just going to be a pain having to ask the HoP or hack in every other round.

As long as there is a chemist I let them do their shit, they are rarely good but I don't muscle them out for that. But lo and behold, the ones that are shit end up ditching medbay ASAP so in the end I am usually the one who has to do it, only delayed.

Can't we just crack down on MDs who doesn't give the chemist a chance?

[uazuaz]

i'd like to see the chemistry job modified to be more varied; you could have some chems removed from the chem dispenser in a a way that you can obtain important medicines that are not available at round start with a chem dispenser alone, and chems not so important using other additional tools; for example i never understood why there is not a proper tool inside chemistry to electrolyze chems, a tool that does automatically the same job of an electrolyzer + centrifuge would be nice.

also, reminder that there are never used bottles and pills of inaprovaline and antitox readily available at round start on the chemistry desk, they could be used for missing chems, something else could be added to be used with such hypothetical electrolyzer maybe.

http://greendotbd.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/water-electrolyzer-test.jpg

https://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1003/1107331492_c8cfc53500.jpg

www.radleys.com/sf_images/default-source/Products/parallel-reaction-stations/w9-department-product-montage/w9-parallel-reaction-stations.tmb-large700.jpg

[Aurx]

@Fruktlimpa

Can't we just crack down on MDs who doesn't give the chemist a chance?

That's not an administrative issue, and making it one would be a major inversion of policy.

[kol1th]

I think it's fine the way it is - If there are chemists, the doctors bugger off, and if there aren't, the doctors can do chemistry without jumping through a few extra hoops.

In the end, however, it only takes around 5 minutes (or less) to get a very serviceable fridge and cryo mix done, but I think that's a separate issue on its own.

As a chemist, if people actually feel like the doctors muscle them out or tell them to get fucked so they can do chemistry instead, I don't think they play the job very often. I've played chemistry quite a lot, and typically the first thing that happens roundstart is people asking "Hey, you got the mix and stuff?", which is far from taking over. Hell, I've had captains and mechanics just barge in and kick me out to get their GIBSMEDATS out of chemistry.

If a system were to be implemented, where doctors would get access if there are no chemists, that would be fine by me. As is, it wouldn't change much other than doctors barging in to not say any words and make chloral or whatever other flavor of shitter juice they want.

[Probe1]

That doesn't actually happen in game. If there are chemists doctors make the chems they want. If there are not chemists doctors make the chems they want.

You can't say it happens how it was intended to happen after 2 years of empirical evidence that if you give someone access, they will use it.

[Aurx]

If there are chemists, the doctors bugger off, and if there aren't, the doctors can do chemistry without jumping through a few extra hoops.

That's not at all how it works. If the chemist made the exact thing the doctor in question wants, the doctor will grab it from the fridge without a single word and bugger off. Otherwise the doctor will barge in without a single word and make his chems and/or call the chemist shit.
This goes triple for cryomixes, especially such highly opinionated cases as "Rye in pills, not in the mix". I've seen two doctors get in a beakerswap fight over that.

[9600bauds]

If the chemist made the exact thing the doctor in question wants, the doctor will grab it from the fridge without a single word and bugger off.

On a good day. Sometimes doctors barge in and start re-making all the chems that are already well-stocked in the fridge, and they will do so in slightly different dosages or with slightly different pill names, and I don't understand it.

And yes just fucking forget about people with access asking things of you instead of barging in. Special shout-out to the all-access HoP that loves to beeline right in and get his hyperzine fresh off the dispenser, because the pills in the fridge are stale.