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Staff of Necromancy changes and some fixes #36702

Open boy2mantwicethefam opened 2 weeks ago

boy2mantwicethefam commented 2 weeks ago

Do not merge yet

:cl:

Eneocho commented 2 weeks ago

>staff of necromancy now has 3 charges instead of being infinite and takes ages to recharge >can't do the funny meat zombie spam REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

angryturnip commented 2 weeks ago

Yeah, the 3 charge limit makes it useless, man. Why ever spend wizard points on it for 3 zombies?

boy2mantwicethefam commented 2 weeks ago

@Eneocho Come on, it's a 20 point investment. You can still do the zombie spam, you just have to be thoughtful about it. Make the dead in Medbay suddenly attack the living and piss Medbay off. @angryturnip The charges recharge, one for every 20 seconds. It recharges twice as fast if the user is a lich (something already in the game)... It's technically a bug fix because everything points to it being intended to have up to 3 charges at a time but the limit wasn't set properly.

angryturnip commented 2 weeks ago

Ahhh, I didn't realize they recharged. That seems fair then. I should have realized such a large nerf didn't sound right.

angryturnip commented 2 weeks ago

Though I kind of agree with Eneocho. Maybe consider having the tiny meat zombies not cost charges while normal zombies do. Though that's something for another PR probably.

Dacendeth commented 2 weeks ago

infinite meat zombies is not a good gimmick let it die.

boy2mantwicethefam commented 2 weeks ago

For now I mostly want to get the PR through as is, though I think I will add a feature to it where zombies can be immediately revived by the necromancer at the cost of a charge to make up for some of the nerfs.

Eneocho commented 2 weeks ago

@Eneocho Come on, it's a 20 point investment. You can still do the zombie spam, you just have to be thoughtful about it. Make the dead in Medbay suddenly attack the living and piss Medbay off. @angryturnip The charges recharge, one for every 20 seconds. It recharges twice as fast if the user is a lich (something already in the game)... It's technically a bug fix because everything points to it being intended to have up to 3 charges at a time but the limit wasn't set properly.

Thing is that the meat slab ghouls are weak as shit, so they're only strong in numbers, and 3 meat ghouls a minute is shit and completely ruins the fun of meatslab zombies. I get nerfing it for proper zombies, but meat slabs are super weak by themselves.

boy2mantwicethefam commented 2 weeks ago

I'll see what I can do about reduced costs, but tomorrow (technically later today). Current idea is to make the process grant charge every tick and then simply have different charge consumption rates depending on action. Walking meat being half the cost should be fine.

boy2mantwicethefam commented 2 weeks ago

Zombifying meat now costs half a charge.

Blithering commented 2 weeks ago

Rather than removing the ability for staff zombies to evolve, it would be nice QOL to have all zombies get a popup warning telling them once they evolve they can't go back to being human. There's no loss in keeping the choice, since someone desperate to be revived has always had the option to just not evolve and hope someone prints a bible. I do have some half finished sprites for skeleton warriors and mages from an idea I had a while back, but losing skelly revive is no big loss.

MercuriusGH commented 2 weeks ago

I don't like how the fixes and QoL is bundled with balance changes Zombies should still be able to evolve, it's up to the player if they want to get revived or get epic frags more easily

boy2mantwicethefam commented 2 weeks ago

@Blithering I intend to disable zombie evolutions from the Staff of Necromancy for now and then see how the Staff of Necromancy fares afterwards, it has a lot of bang for its buck and every round with a necromancer wizard would end up with a lot of unrevivable players and/or a zombie apocalypse beyond what the necromancer was merely reviving. At least other means such as the soulstone use a limited-use item with more limitations (such as being in close range) and have far more interesting mechanics going on than what zombies are getting. Evolutions still work for other means of zombifying such as through the Virology virus, which I also think is more thematically appropriate. Skeletons couldn't actually evolve, the evolution mechanic is for zombies only. It's one of the reasons raising skeletons was seen as punishing.

@MercuriusGH I do have a problem with scopecreeping changes, initially it was supposed to be just preventing zombies from evolving but both the Staff of Necromancy and the zombie evolutions were broken enough that I also included fixes, and then it just escalated into reworking the Staff of Necromancy somewhat. I attribute it to a general lack of patience in attempting to exercise bugfixes while still remembering them and wanting to do them, and making multiple overlapping PRs would mean revisiting to fix conflicts even when I might not be in a mood to do it, which led to a few PRs taking far longer than they should to be merged just because I was lazy.

I already considered the merits of letting a warning for evolving instead of disabling it from Staff of Necromancy zombies but I think this change would be better off for everyone; evolutions not only encourage players to butcher every zombie they come across (regardless if they are revivable or not, because I don't think most players care about the description distinction) but at the same time most players probably wouldn't stop themselves from evolving to gain an edge. I do want to experiment with an idea where necromancer zombies would immediately revert into dead players to make it easier to retrieve them but I think that's for another PR.

Blithering commented 1 week ago

A couple of notes, soulstone wizards aren't limited so long as they think ahead enough to make an artificer who can then create infinite stones (and shells but that's something the wiz has too). Also without the ability to evolve and in doing so become infectious, and also (in a later pr) turning into dead players on death, eliminating their revival, what makes these zombies... Well, zombies?

boy2mantwicethefam commented 1 week ago

You're right about the artificers but I think it'll be overbearing if I touched that one. I want to make the Staff of Necromancy less of a round gunker while making it significantly better to use, not nerf the wizard's entire capability to remove people from the round. What makes the zombies zombies is being undead. Zombie evolution is typically associated with disease-based undead (think Left 4 Dead, CDDA, The Last of Us, CDDA, Halo, Prototype and so on) whereas necromancy involves raising the dead through arcane means, and any zombie evolution for necromancy'd zombies is usually done by the necromancer itself deciding to upgrade their undead army. Not sure how to implement it for the Staff of Necromancy, perhaps bring back the ability to select which type of undead to raise and to just create a whole lot of necromancy-variant undead, but that would be for another PR, I can already imagine the headaches of trying to implement it in a cohesive way such as skeleton soldiers becoming skeleton crewmembers. Did you know that changing species involves fully healing the mob? I really need to look into adding a variant that doesn't do that.

Blithering commented 1 week ago

I meant more in the lines of it they can't evolve, infect or revive, they've not got any undead flavour left and may just as well be any other simple mob.

boy2mantwicethefam commented 1 week ago

You've got a point, I should probably scrap the "instantly turn back into a regular human" plans. But still, necromancer zombies should remain necromancer zombies, not virulent zombies. They're the shambling dead that overwhelm and eat the living. The necromancer should say cheesy lines to his undead underlings.

Blithering commented 1 week ago

I do like the idea of the necromancer upgrading undead, maybe staff charges could be used to level up minions.