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Language tags in HTML and XML 14 Apr 2023 #59

Open r12a opened 1 year ago

r12a commented 1 year ago

https://w3c.github.io/i18n-drafts/articles/language-tags/index.en.html https://w3c.github.io/i18n-drafts/articles/language-tags/index.fr.html

Translator: Gwen Clavé, Clavoline Traduction (@clavoline) https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-i18n-translation/2023AprJun/0000.html

clavoline commented 11 months ago

Hi @r12a, I've found several translations for some of the terms used in the article. The main sources I've referred to are this document and that one. Do you have any preferences?

# English French - option A French - option B
1 primary language subtag sous-étiquette de langue primaire sous-étiquette de langue principale[^2]
2 extended language subtag[^1] sous-étiquette d'extension de langue sous-étiquette de langues étendue
3 extlang subtag[^1] sous-étiquette extlang -
4 script subtag sous-étiquette d'écriture -
5 region subtag sous-étiquette de région sous-étiquette de région géographique
6 variant subtag sous-étiquette de variante -
7 extension subtag sous-étiquette d'extension -
8 private use subtag sous-étiquette d'utilisation privée sous-étiquette à usage privé[^3]
9 matching correspondance comparaison
10 ISO language code code de langue ISO indicatif de langue ISO

[^1]: Of course, "extended language subtag" and "extlang subtag" refer to the same subtag. [^2]: I've also seen "sous-étiquette principale de langue". [^3]: Or "sous-étiquette d'usage privé".

The following adjectives are used to qualify tags, subtags, or entries in the registry:

# English French - option A French - option B
11 deprecated déconseillé caduc
12 grandfathered exonéré patrimonial

In addition, what do you think of the translation of "locale" by "profil local" in the following sentences?

# English French
13 For example, the extension subtag u has been registered by the Unicode Consortium to add information about language or locale behavior. Par exemple, le Consortium Unicode a enregistré la sous-étiquette d’extension u pour ajouter des informations sur le comportement de la langue ou du profil local.
14 Many locale identifiers require additional "tailorings" or options for specific values within a language, culture, region, or other variation. De nombreux identifiants de profil local nécessitent des adaptations ou des options supplémentaires pour des valeurs spécifiques dans une langue, une culture, une région ou une autre variante.

According to the Hapax Unicode glossary, "locale" should be translated as "locale", "profil local" or "profil culturel". I've also found the following equivalents in case any of them might be more appropriate. Some are from this glossary:

By the way, should we add an aside explaining what a locale or a locale identifier is? I'm not sure I understand it enough to explain it myself, even after reading the specs.

Last but not least, I'm not sure what to do with "interchange" here - is it a synonym for "interoperability"?

Extension subtags allow for extensions to the language tag. For example, the extension subtag u has been registered by the Unicode Consortium to add information about language or locale behavior. Many locale identifiers require additional "tailorings" or options for specific values within a language, culture, region, or other variation. This extension provides a mechanism for using these additional tailorings within language tags for general interchange.

Thank you!

r12a commented 11 months ago

By the way, should we add an aside explaining what a locale or a locale identifier is? I'm not sure I understand it enough to explain it myself, even after reading the specs.

Does this help? https://w3c.github.io/i18n-glossary/#dfn-locale

Last but not least, I'm not sure what to do with "interchange" here - is it a synonym for "interoperability"?

Rather than interoperability, which refers to support for a feature across various platforms, i'd characterise the word 'interchange' here as meaning unfettered exchange of information/data across various platforms (esp. browsers). Does that help?

clavoline commented 10 months ago

Hi @r12a,

I finally had time to go through the translation again. Unfortunately this means more comments and questions!

  1. In the French version, I took some liberties with the structure of the first section. This is by no means a way to impose my choices, but rather to make a proposition and see how you feel about it. If you want me to follow the structure of the English version, I can put everything back in the right place.

FYI, I started making changes because of a layout issue:

Layout issue

The "Terminologie" box had too much text for the "RFC" box to properly display below it. I tried to make it shorter, but had to remove too much information.

The other changes were made to (hopefully) help readers get the gist faster and identify more easily the different subjects addressed in the Overview.

  1. In English, the second section ("Constructing language tags") starts with a comparison of the last and next-to-last RFCs:

Some of the key differences between RFC 5646 and earlier specifications such as RFC 3066 are:

Since the latest RFC was adopted (?) in September 2009, this comparison must have been very helpful at the time, but I wonder how relevant it is today.

Maybe it would make sense to move it to the end of the article, under "By the way." What do you think?

Another option would be to create a section (H2) between "Overview" and "Constructing language tags" - e.g. "Specifications about language tags" - that would include both the answer currently under "Où est définie la syntaxe des étiquettes de langues ?" and this comparison.

In the meantime, I thought it made sense to start this section with the different types of subtags and to add a subheading before the comparison.

  1. Re: the two colored lists of subtags, would you rather keep the list in English, in French, or both?
  1. Do you think it would make sense to move the paragraph about letter-casing conventions to the Overview - e.g. right after the table?
  1. "Using the subtag registry" is currently a subsection (H3) under "Constructing language tags".

Do you think it would make sense to make it a section (H2) between "Overview" and "Constructing language tags" - e.g. "Finding subtags in the IANA registry"?

In that case, I think the Q&A "Où trouver les sous-étiquettes à utiliser ?" could be removed from the Overview.

  1. In the following sentence:

In fact, for most people, RFC 5646 should actually make life simpler in a number of ways – for one thing, there is only one place you need to look now for valid subtags.

This "one thing" seems redundant as it was already mentioned in a list two paragraphs above:

there is just one place to look for valid subtags, the new IANA registry

Can I end the sentence after "a number of ways"?

  1. Under "The extended language subtag," I thought the paragraph recommending the use of a single language subtag over the use of a language+extlang combination should stand out. I can of course remove the styling if you prefer.
  1. In the following sentence:

The availability of zh-Hans and zh-Hant for Chinese written in Simplified and Traditional scripts should improve consistency and accuracy, and is already becoming widely used, although of course you may need to continue to use the old language tags in some cases for consistency.

The repetition of "consistency" seems contradictory. I think the second one refers to backward compatibility (if that is the right term). What do you think?

  1. In the following sentence:

The variant subtags must appear after any language, script or region subtags, but script and region subtags do not need to precede them.

I understand that script and region subtags are optional, but when there is a script or region subtag, the variant subtag must appear after it. Is this interpretation correct?

  1. Regarding the following sentence:

If you feel you really need to use these subtags, you should read the specification, rather than this article.

I thought this sentence should stand out. I can of course remove the styling if you prefer.

However, the link doesn’t seem up-to-date. Should it point to RFC 5646 instead?

  1. Do you think "Common Locale Data Repository" should be translated?

Thank you!

r12a commented 10 months ago

@clavoline sorry for the delay. I was away for a week, and am struggling to get up to date since my return. I'll try to get to this today, or this week.

clavoline commented 8 months ago

@r12a Hi Richard, I hope things are a bit less hectic for you these days :) I thought you might appreciate a reminder that this translation is ready for review. Please take your time - I don't mean to rush you!

r12a commented 8 months ago

Replying to https://github.com/w3c/i18n-translations/issues/59#issuecomment-1697919228. As i went through the comments i made changes to the english version. You can see the changes at https://w3c.github.io/i18n-drafts/articles/language-tags/index.en.html and the change log at https://github.com/w3c/i18n-drafts/commit/9a1d64660bedc6a2025f41a0d03053c5c5d755ed.

[1] I'm not too worried about this. The styling is designed to cope with this, where needed, in that the two boxes shouldn't overlap.

[2] Good idea. I moved the historical information to the By The Way section.

[3] I think both is fine, if you think it's necessary. We should however keep the english version, since this is a list of keywords that should map to the entries in the registry.

For the examples in the right margin, i vacillated a little. I think it's probably ok to translate the terms in the header, but we may need to ensure that in each section the text indicates that we are talking about things with the label 'language', 'script', etc in the registry. That was the original intention for those headings in the english version.

In the end, i thought that maybe it would be better to keep the english word, such as "Sous-étiquettes language" (with a span around 'language' to apply lang="en"). (?). I would however exclude from that the Extension and Private Use terms.

[4] Done.

[5] Done.

[6] Yes. (But i left it in the English.)

[7] I think it's a good point to emphasise, however, in the english version i did this slightly differently: i added class="warning" to the p tag, rather than making it a note.

[8] Well spotted. I simply removed the text ", although of course you may need to continue to use the old language tags in some cases for consistency".

[9] Yes. I changed the text to read "but are not necessarily preceded by a script or region subtag".

[10] Feel free to emphasis, but i would use class="info" rather than the note markup. Done in the english.

We typically point to the BCP47 link because if RFC5646 is superceded by a new RFC (which has happened in the past) the link will still point to the right place.

[11] No, i wouldn't translate it in place, but you might want to add a translation afterwards in parens ?

r12a commented 8 months ago

@clavoline fwiw, i just made 2 small edits to the english file. See https://github.com/w3c/i18n-drafts/commit/9480c9996d81213e3c39f0bc1811471b200046dd

clavoline commented 8 months ago

@r12a Thank you so much for your answers! I've made (hopefully all) the changes and submitted them.