Review our terminology

[LJWatson]

We could launch a review of W3C documentation and policies, and ask the W3C team to do the same internally, to look for instances where the words and phrases used could be changed to be more diversity friendly.

[hober]

One of the purposes of an ERB (#14) is to review draft charters and specifications for the use of oppressive language.

[TzviyaSiegman]

This will be assigned to Joey Salazar

[hober]

See also https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-knodel-terminology/

[hober]

There are some problematic named colors in CSS and SVG, e.g. indianred, and others that warrant a closer look from someone more familiar with indigenous concerns e.g. navajowhite.

See also (and pitch in on) the CSSWG issue on this.

[shawna-slh]

Recently the following was added to the W3C Manual of Style

Terms to avoid: he/she/him/her ; Possible alternatives: they Terms to avoid: his/hers ; Possible alternatives: theirs

The Accessibility Education and Outreach Working Group (EOWG) uses named personas, for example in Stories of Web Users in How People with Disabilities Use the Web. Some WAI groups are also using named personas in TR docs.

After open consideration, research, and discussion, EOWG strongly preferred not using "they/their" for singular personas. Rationale:

• It is harder for many people to understand
• It seems grammatically incorrect to many people
• It doesn't respect people who prefer to be referred to with a gender pronoun

The first two are particularly an issue for some people with language disabilities, and for whom English is not their native language.

EOWG agreed on the guidance in the following:

• Personal pronouns
• Personas and use cases

We discussed those EOWG proposals in a W3C Team meeting on 5 August. There was generally strong support and no objections (albeit Coralie and some others were not available).

EOWG would like to get ID CG input on this, and probably input from the Chairs list (where the topic was discussed). We hope then it can be adopted W3C-wide.

(related to https://github.com/w3c/idcg/issues/17 )

[marisademeglio]

I thought the Personal pronouns section looked ok. I have only one comment, that "preferred pronoun" should be changed to "personal pronoun". From Let’s Get it Right: Using Correct Pronouns and Names:

There has been a much-needed movement away from asking and identifying pronouns as “preferred.” For example, people used to ask, “What is your preferred pronoun?” This question is problematic because a person’s pronouns are not just “preferred”—they are the pronouns that should be used.

I have more comments about the Personas and use cases section:

For persona pronouns, it's OK to use "she/her, he/his, they/their".

• For most personas, use gender-specific pronouns. Rationale: It is easier to understand, it is easier grammatically, and it respects people who prefer to be referred to with a gender pronoun.
• When there are several personas, consider also including personas who are non-binary gender and use the pronoun "they/their".

I don't like the text that follows the first line because it discourages the use of "they/their" pronouns. Imagine if it said "you can use 'she' but only if 'he' has been used first". "They/their" pronouns shouldn't be described as difficult or less important.

To me, the guidance about pronouns in the Manual of Style is useful for when real people or personas aren't being referred to (e.g. "the author" => "they"). I think that for specific references to real people or personas, he/she/they (and fwiw there are other personal pronouns too) are appropriate. And, I would not prioritize any one over another.

[shawna-slh]

marisademeglio said:

have only one comment, that "preferred pronoun" should be changed to "personal pronoun".

I went to change it, yet it seems not clear enough. Here is the current wording:

Generally avoid using gender pronouns (she/her, he/his); except:

• for real people when you use their preferred pronoun

This doesn't seem clear enough:

• for real people when you use their personal pronoun

Ideas? Maybe:

• for real people when you use the personal pronoun that they use

?

[marisademeglio]

This doesn't seem clear enough:

• for real people when you use their personal pronoun

To me, that seems ok? Is the idea that you should use singular "they" when talking abstractly (e.g. "the author", "the doctor"), and personal pronouns when referring to a real person or persona in a use case?

[shawna-slh]

To me, that seems ok? Is the idea that you should use singular "they" when talking abstractly (e.g. "the author", "the doctor"), and personal pronouns when referring to a real person or persona in a use case?

That is intended to refer only to real, actual people - e.g., Marisa DeMeglio or Shawn Lawton Henry or Tim Berners-Lee, etc.

So I guess this is not quite clear enough

for real people when you use their personal pronoun

:-)

Maybe:

for real people when you use the personal pronoun that they use for themselves

[marisademeglio]

Maybe:

for real people when you use the personal pronoun that they use for themselves

I think that's definitely unambiguous -- and with the removal of "preferred", it works for me.

[shawna-slh]

I think that's definitely unambiguous -- and with the removal of "preferred", it works for me.

updated at https://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/Style#Personal_pronouns

[aschrijver]

@hober wrote:

See also https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-knodel-terminology/

Note that IETF also has an unofficial repo for new terminology suggestions that is input to this document (e.g. I PR'ed deception patterns as alternative to 'dark patterns')

https://github.com/ietf/terminology