Revisiting and generalising the concept of fullwidth; summary
Spacing of open parenthesis at the beginning of a sentence or a line; summary
Character classes for spacing between ideographs and non-ideographs; updates
Ruby terminology (Murata-san)
Reviewing jlreq-d the second chapter (layout details)
Administrative matters
Kida: I would like to manage todo’s using GitHub. Discussions are better done on GitHub, especially when they have a clear focus. In contrast GH does not seem to be good at brainstorming kind of discussions; brainstormings will continue to be done on mail for now.
Bin-sensei: Currently the jlreq-d draft is done on Wiki and discussions are done on the email list. It is not easy to track comments and the change history. Is there a better way? kida: You can look at change history on Wiki. Google docs has a better change tracking feature. So it might be an option. While we are in a rough draft mode and there are many rewrites it is hard to manage them on GH issue. Let’s explore options while we move on.
The trial of recording / transcribing / auto-summarising to generate meeting notes did not go well. It needed similar time compared to creating meeting notes by hand.
todo: Kida will turn pending todos to GH issue (#383 )
todo: Kida (and all) explore if there is a better way to manage draft level documents (#384 )
Revisiting and generalising the concept of Zenkaku (jlreq-d #35)
After extensive discussions on the email list, the current agreement is to define ‘Zenkaku’ following the width of U+3000 IDEOGRAPHIC SPACE. This definition aligns with the width of Zenkaku space expected by fonts that have varying widths between Kanji and Kana characters. Examples of such fonts are MS P Mincho/Gothic, and AXIS Condensed. In these fonts, U+3000 matches or closely approximates the width of Kana characters.
In the JLReq documentation, the term 'Zenkaku' has traditionally been used under the assumption that all characters are square-shaped and of uniform size. However, this definition becomes problematic when generalizing to scenarios where characters are rectangular and/or vary in size between kanji and kana. The overloading of 'Zenkaku' needs to be resolved in order to generalize the layout descriptions to cover such fonts. The proposed definition reflects the expected width for “Zenkaku Aki (one em space)”. Other typical use of ‘Zenkaku’ includes width of characters (which now varies), and line advance width.
Space before open parenthesis at the beginning of a sentence and a line (jlreq-d #37)
There was also an extensive discussions on the email list regarding the spacing of open parenthesis at the beginning of a sentence or a line.
Conclusions are:
The logical default spacing is ツメ, i.e. removing preceding ½ em space before opening punctuations at the beginning of text such as beginning of sentences, folded lines and lists. This applies to both indented and blank line sentence styles.
Nonetheless there are different house styles and preferences and they should also be honoured. One piece of caution is that these house styles assume indented sentence style and therefore they do not necessarily applicable to blank line sentence style, which is the default on the web.
The discussion of what should be the default on the web is a different issue because of compatibility requirements.
There are discussions regarding definition of character classes that controls spacing between ideographic and other characters. such as CSSWG#9479 and CSSWG#9503.
Kida compared the proposed definition and jlreq-d’s spacing property and found some differences. Reported it on SSWG#9503.
update: Ishi-san wants to propose a Unicode character class for this purpose. I will be a co-author. JLReq and jlreq-d’s spacing property describes both removing extra space between consecutive punctuations, and adding space between ideograph and non-ideograph characters. The proposal will focus on the latter.
We have decided not to use Mono, Group and Jukugo Ruby in ruby layout descriptions in jlreq-d because these terms have an assumption that the base text is a string of Kanji and the ruby annotation is a string of Kana. We want to generalise the ruby layout in jlreq-d so it does not have assumptions on the script used for the base or the ruby annotation. These terms will be touched on in side notes.
Remaining issue regarding the terminology is if we define a name for the combination of the base text and ruby annotation. Kida: When I drafted a proposal of line-foldable ruby I often felt the need for the term. Bin-sensei: the term ‘Oyamoji-gun (base text group)’ was used in JIS X 4051. - no conclusion
Murata: related to the topic do we need a term for “rb/rb/rt/rt”and “rb/rt/rb/rt” ? I do not know if they are differ in the resulting layout. todo: need to clarify.
Murata: When we say “ruby” what does it mean? It was sometimes used to describe the annotation attached, and sometimes it means the feature as a whole. The annotation part should be called “ruby annotation” for clarify.
For para-ruby and sou-ruby, JLReq TF folks thinks they can be used as-is.
todo: Murata to update the wiki and contact clreq for feedback (#385 )
todo: Murata to clarify if there are semantic difference between “rb/rb/rt/rt”and “rb/rt/rb/rt” and if so what they are (#385 )
Reviewing jlreq-d the second chapter
Bin-sensei: Not sure about the style it should use.
Let’s think after we gather all materials.
Next meeting
As Nat is in town the next meeting will be face to face on Nov. 24.
(日本語は後ろに)
JLReq TF meeting notes 2023-10-31
Attendee: atsuda, atsushi, kida, kobatake, murata, nat, suzuki, tajima, taro, tlk, toshi, yamahige
Agenda
Administrative matters
Revisiting and generalising the concept of Zenkaku (jlreq-d #35)
Space before open parenthesis at the beginning of a sentence and a line (jlreq-d #37)
Space between ideographs and non-ideographs
Ruby terminology (Murata-san)
Reviewing jlreq-d the second chapter
Next meeting
議題
管理的なことがら
全角の概念の再考察と一般化(jlreq-d #35)
メールリストでの広範な議論の後、現在の合意は「全角」をU+3000 IDEOGRAPHIC SPACEの幅に従って定義することです。この定義は、漢字と仮名で幅が変わるフォントに期待される全角スペースの幅と一致しています。そのようなフォントの例には、MS P明朝/ゴシックやAXIS Condensedがあります。これらのフォントでは、U+3000は仮名文字の幅と一致するか、それに近いです。
JLReqの文書では、伝統的に「全角」という用語は、すべての文字が正方形で均一なサイズであるという仮定の下で使用されていました。しかし、この定義は、文字が長方形であったり、漢字と仮名の間でサイズが異なるようなシナリオを含むように一般化する際に問題となります。「全角」の多義性を解決する必要があり、そのようなフォントをカバーするレイアウトの説明を一般化するためです。提案された定義は、「全角アキ(一エムスペース)」として期待される幅を反映しています。他の「全角」の典型的な使用には、文字の幅(現在は変動)や行の進行幅が含まれます。 さらなる議論はjlreq-d #35で行うべきです。
文や行の始まりにおける開き括弧のスペース(jlreq-d #37)
漢字と非漢字の間のスペース
ルビ用語(村田さん)
jlreq-d第2章のレビュー
次回の会議