Recall procedures for TAG and AB

[mnot]

The Board has a removal procedure, but the TAG and AB do not, beyond the CEO's ability to discipline them.

Given the direct process role that they now play when Councils are convened, it seems appropriate to make the TAG and AB more accountable to the Membership by defining a procedure for recalling them.

Straw-man proposal: a recall can be instigated by a demand signed by 20 Member representatives, and it's executed as a requisite member vote.

[frivoal]

Only commenting on a side aspect of the proposal for now, rather than on the core question, but invoking Bylaws concepts like Member representatives and requisite member votes for groups like the AB or TAG which are anchored in the Process is weird, and creates inter-dependencies that I'd rather avoid. If anything, we should go with AC Reps.

[mnot]

Yes, that bugged me too, but those procedures / definitions seemed more appropriate. Maybe I've just had my head in the bylaws too much lately.

In the longer term, rationalising the bylaws and process should make such things easier (I hope). In the meantime, let's get agreement in principle on the parameters first, and worry about implementation language later.

[dwsinger]

one place to look for similarity or grounding might be the appeal procedure in the Process?

[frivoal]

one place to look for similarity or grounding might be the appeal procedure in the Process?

Yes, I was thinking about that too: https://www.w3.org/2023/Process-20231103/#ACAppeal seems like a workable basis. I'm happy to try and draft something based on that. TLDR: it's a two step process, where you need to convince 5% of the voter base that the question is worth taking up to have a vote, and if you do, you hold a vote during which you need to reach majority for the proposal to pass.

Incidentally, both for this recall procedure and for the general AC appeal, I think we could/should borrow the Bylaws's notion of a threshold that varies based on quorum. passing drastic things by simple majority without a quorum requirement worries e a little bit, even if there's not precedent of it being an issue. Maybe I should open a separate issue about that?

[frivoal]

See https://github.com/w3c/process/issues/886 for a discussion of adopting voting thresholds along the lines of what the bylaws do for requisite member votes.

[chaals]

Addressing the substance, with thoughts that haven't crystallised for me yet:

I'm uneasy about this in general. I understand the need for accountability, but I don't think single-seat recalls provide a very good version of it for a representative body like TAG or AB.

I'd perhaps be OK with a "nuclear spill" option resulting in the whole AB or TAG being put up for election. I'm also leaning to suggesting that we introduce effective good standing requirements for AB and TAG. (I was a proponent in removing them from working groups, where they had become rarely-used to the point that enforcing them was likely unfair in practice).

There's already a lot of asymmetry in the way W3C works, given it already institutionalises machtpolitik by putting a premium on mass adoption in an ecosystem where there are a few superpowers. I am not very concerned about those superpowers behaving badly. But I am concerned that we'll end up motivating others to do so.

Being able to recall a single individual from the fairly small AB/TAG, presumably on the basis of supporting a position that a small proportion of members strongly disagree with, seems like a tool that invites gaming, and something that makes it less attractive for good-faith actors to stand in the first place, and places a higher price on them acting as they see fit.

IMHO (and I realise people disagree with me) we mitigate some of the asymmetry through the use of STV to elect these increasingly powerful councillors, and by holding consensus as a core value for those bodies. Lowering the barriers to enable decisions to be forced more easily, instead of having to slog through more consensus-building, seems to me a step in the wrong direction.

I'm trying to think through controversial things W3C has done (or decided against), and how a recall procedure would have affected the outcome. My initial guesses suggest more political game-playing and resultant rancour, for no clear practical benefit.

I'd like to see some arguments that explain how this would work in practice and how that would be an overall improvement.

[dwsinger]

I tend to agree with Chaals.

Also the impact on the person concerned of even having a recall vote issued against them, let alone having it succeed, could be a large mark on their career. I have a hard time imagining it would or should ever be used.

I suppose we could have a "vote of no confidence" in the TAG or AB as a whole, which triggers a "general election", but I cannot imagine a time in the past where that would or could have been used (and the efficacy of both bodies has gone up and down over the years).

[cwilso]

I'm somewhat ambivalent about recall procedures; I think they are a nuclear option that are unlikely to be applied, or at least applied repeatedly or without serious reason to be applied. I wouldn't object to any of the options suggested.

My disagreement with you, Chaals, is that STV is increasingly excluding those "superpowers" (as it prioritizes diversity of opinion, those affiliated with centrist "superpowers" are unlikely to garner enough votes to get elected), and that increase in diverse representation has sadly turned into consensus-blocking in practice. (I.e., significant lack of doers, significant surplus of objectors). This has diminished the value of those bodies, in my opinion.

As for the impact on someone of having a recall vote issued against them, frankly we do not expose enough real information about participation to initiate recalls on anything but political grounds, and as someone probably more likely to have such a recall issued against me, I don't see it as any more embarrassing or career-marking than our election mechanisms already are, so I don't think it's of great concern.

I will note as I did originally that the "discipline" the CEO has at their disposal already includes the power to remove AB and TAG participants:

The CEO may take disciplinary action, including suspending or removing for cause a participant in any group (including the AB and TAG) if serious and/or repeated violations, such as failure to meet the requirements on individual behavior of (a) this process and in particular the CEPC, or (b) the membership agreement, or (c) applicable laws, occur. Refer to the Guidelines to suspend or remove participants from groups.

[frivoal]

Personally:

• As a current member of an elected body (the AB), it am comfortable with recall procedures existing. If used without just cause, they're more likely to mar the reputation of the person using them than that of the target, and if used in a case where it would be warranted, it's good to have them.
• As a somewhat long time participant in W3C, I do not recall a single time where I thought a member of the TAG or the AB did something that would warrant a recall, nor a time where I though either body as a whole needed recalling.

I don't have a strong view on individual vs collective recall. Collective is likely less prone to abuse, but also fairly blunt.