Multi-product-houses show misleading productivity (includes mock-ups for a new production site window)

[bunnybot]

(This might be a duplicate of bug 571796, based on comment #6 which states the method for calculating productivity is not precise.) It also contains a mockup of a new unified window with useful information for all production sites in Widelands, covering, a Coalmine, a Toolsmith and a Lumberjack as examples.

Early on in the game I use my smelting works mainly to produce iron, to the point where I delay building gold mines until I got enough iron for a steady production of tools/weapons. While gold is useful for the helm smithy and war mill, it just isn't that important for barbarians early on. Due to this, the smelting works are running on full capacity by report to be 65% productive, presumably since they are missing gold. I suspect it might calculate the productivity based on the wares available and the lack of gold will drag the average down. Is this right, or am I in fact missing out by not having gold available?

---

Imported from Launchpad using lp2gh.

• date created: 2011-06-13T14:50:37Z
• owner: hjd
• the launchpad url was https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/796644

[bunnybot]

(by hjd)

[bunnybot]

(by sirver) You are in fact right: the smelting works is not producing as many wares/minute as it would if it also contains gold. There is waste here, but read on.

the problem is how productivity is defined. In this case, the smelting works tries to smelt gold periodically which obviously fails. The next time it tries to smelt iron. From this standpoint, some attempts of working are failing, therefore the productivity values are quite logical.

Obviously in your case you do not care about gold, for you everything works as expected. But how would you show in later stages of the game that gold is missing? You maybe would want gold to be smelted than, but your smelting works would still report 100% because it happily smelts iron.

So, I think the current system is quite good. I am open for suggestions though.

[bunnybot]

(by hjd)

But how would you show in later stages of the game that gold is missing?

Good question. I hadn't thought about that. Thanks for your explanation. I don't really have any better suggestions to deal with this. I'll leave it open though, in case someone comes up with something before it expires...

[bunnybot]

(by wolfsteinmetz) Is it not good enough that the warmill and helmsmithy don't have an gold ingots?

I'm sure I must be overlooking something.... but..... Can you not re-define the productivity to something more useful? Not considering fails, but based on output?

(Actual output within the last x minutes / Maximal possible output in the same period, when all raw material is inhouse and only the production time and sleep cycles count)

This should also produce more reliable status displays and could enable us to show unrounded numbers.

[bunnybot]

(by hjd)

Is it not good enough that the warmill and helmsmithy don't have an gold ingots?

If I see a building missing some ware, I will briefly check if I have the ware in my HQ, or how the production building of that ware is running. If I see the smelter running at 100% I would assume some gold ingots will soon be on their way. It wouldn't really occur to me to check which resources the building contains. I would assume the lack of gold will sort itself out and focus on something else. This means my economy will suffer until I start wondering and look closer into the issue.

In the current system you will have less than 100% if gold is not produced, which actually makes more sense, since you can automatically tell something is wrong. I didn't consider this part at all when I wrote the original report, which leaves quite a large gap.

[bunnybot]

(by sirver) I think we must rethink the productivity design altogether: productivity should be by ware that can be produced instead of building wise (or technically: by program that can be run in the building). E.g. the current display could stay the same, but clicking on a building could show the wares it produces and next to it a productiviy value. So a smelter with only iron + coal inside would show 66% productivty hovering over it's building, but in it's window you could see that iron production is 100% (as it suceeds every time the building tries to produce an iron) and gold production is 0% (as there is no gold around). Would that be to complex for new players to grasp?

[bunnybot]

(by hjd) I sort of like the idea of showing the average percentage for the building and individual productivity for each ware. I am not sure if that would be too complex for players to grasp in itself, but there may be some problems still. I am mainly concerned it might be easy to mistakingly think it is somehow connected to the priority buttons. This will of course depend on how it is organized, but essentially each ware will show the current stock, a percentage and priority buttons. Even if they are placed on each side of the stock, it may be easy to connect the percentage with the priority. So unless someone has a better idea, I don't think we should add it.

[bunnybot]

(by sirver) I feel this is mainly an UI issue. Some clearifying icons, some grouping elements (like 3D boxes or so) could help to get the message across. I would love to see a shot from someone at it.

[bunnybot]

(by wolfsteinmetz) Starting out from this thread, I have tried to create a mock-up of an advanced production site building. I have chosen an imperial toolsmithy, since this seemed extreme in regard to the wares produced. (trying not cause problems with too large windows on low res displays) I have also tried to consider the wishlist entries and bug reports that pertain to such a window, and linked them. There are also some additional ideas I had while painting this. Trying to make it easy to comment, the attachment is a reader-enabled PDF Adobe reader V.8-10 should be fine to comment.

As usual, this is unfortunately just a "painted solution", not a coded one. Well, you know my sig :) Give me your views, please.

[bunnybot]

(by sirver) This is a wonderful mockup! Unfortuneatley, my software is unable to comment inside the PDF, but I can read your comments just fine.

Only a few things popped up in my head: if we do such a major redesign, we should incorporate more information about the building, somwhere where it is available on a quick glance. Also, what would you suggest for houses that do not have any output wares at all or only one? For some productionsites, flash production makes little sense (lumberjack for example); if the button is simply not there it is a bit confusing for the player maybe.

[bunnybot]

(by elisabeth) @SirVer: Instead of removing the button when it’s not needed, it could be greyed out and therefore just be unusable.

[bunnybot]

(by wolfsteinmetz) SirVer wrote:

Only a few things popped up in my head: if we do such a major redesign, we should incorporate more information about the building, somwhere where it is available on a quick glance.

What information are you thinking of?
Buildcost? or maybe what you get back when dismanteling? That'S probably another tab.
I would not want to replace the "overall productivity" (S key), so this would be still show up on the main window.
Ah ... you probably want more information in the way of a help system (What does this building do, etc.)
How about placing an "info" button on the lower right corner?
Following the Input/Output/Crew logic, we could have corresponding information, so that there really are 3 screens.
I can add something like that .... will try.

I think it is wise to keep the tabs the same for all houses, unless it utter nonsense, even though there are some with no real "input", and some with no real output. You never know.... you know :)
How about showing the info page in such cases then?
As an example: Currently an Input page does not make sense for a lumberjack - so we would just show the info page
that explaines that a lumberjack cuts down trees......
If somebody later programs a logic that a lumberjack should choose only oak trees (because they make longer lasting ships) we'd have the input page and could use it.
just a thought.....
I'll think some more, maybe add some pictures and come back.
No time now.

[bunnybot]

(by sirver)

11) yes, but greyed out tabs feel unnaterual, especially if they after it are used and clickable

12) yes, i was thinking about buildcost, dismanetlng gains, worker information and so on. basic on-one-glance help.

I cannot think how the info panel could be shown for the lumberjack in the input wares tab without being confusing. Looking forward to your mockup.

[bunnybot]

(by wolfsteinmetz) OKay, did some work, but had not that much time. Here are some additions. They are strictly about "how to transport more information" in that window and what kind of. I have not yet thought about the problem with other houses yet, but I will from now on. I'm myself quite curious, whether that idea works out or not. I hope so.

[bunnybot]

(by elisabeth) I don’t really understand your use of the arrows at the help pages.When I see a right arrow, I think I can reach the next page (in this case probably the help page of the next tab), so I understand that the left arrow will bring me back to the previous page. I don’t expect the window to close again. So I would prefer either a close button image or no button at all for this purpose.

I mean, when you click the info button, a new help window corresponding to the opened tab will open, right? Then you have two windows regarding one building. The one with the normal info tabs and the one with the help. Why not browse through the help parallel to browsing through the tabs?

Or did I misunderstand you?

About your last minute idea about the coordinates: I like it. As I understood the debugging mode always shows the coordinates in one screen corner (never tried it myself) but as you said, when „normal“ players want to report a bug regarding a special building or a special part of a map they have to describe it in a relatively complex way. But I’m not sure if players want to see that information when they don’t do bug reports. On the other hand could it possibly be helpful in multiplayer games when the players make tactical discussions (just a guess; I never played multiplayer too).

[bunnybot]

(by wolfsteinmetz)

Venatrix wrote: I don’t really understand your use of the arrows at the help pages.When I see a right arrow, I think I can reach the >next page

Yes, that is what I meant.

(in this case probably the help page of the next tab),

Nope - You stay inside the tab that you have chosen. There is the Input tab (you reach it by clicking inside the red square at the tabs) The input tab has a green "i" button. This invokes the help and take you to the 1st help screen. This has a left and a right arrow. The right arrow takes you back to the Input tab window. The left arrow takes you to the 2nd help screen, where you now again have a left and a right arrow. The right arrow is greyed out (there is no 3rd help for the "input tab"), the left arrow goes back to the 1st help screen, and from there you can go back (left arrow) to the input tab with the green "i" icon. Clearer?

so I understand that the left arrow will bring me back to the previous page. I don’t expect the window to close >again. So I would prefer either a close button image or no button at all for this purpose.

I just mentioned that, instead of going back, you can always close any window in WL (these included) by doing a right-click. That will work with "the real thing" not with this mock-up! I cannot simulate this a pdf-File. (the red squares are just links that point to targets inside the pdf, or to URLs )

I mean, when you click the info button, a new help window corresponding to the opened tab will open, right?

Exactly!

Then >you have two windows regarding one building.

Hmm.. now it's my turn to utter some doubts whether I do understand you :) There will always be only one window open for the same building at any time. Either one of the windows you can reach by the tabs, or one of the help/info-windows, that you have reached from the within the tabs windows (green "i" icon). The latter will replace the afore opened window (not cover it, or open additionally)

The one with the normal info tabs and the one with the help. Why >not browse through the help parallel to >browsing through the tabs? Or did I misunderstand you?

Not sure Venatrix :) The idea was that you 1) click on a house (production site); same as it always has been. the default tab will open (the default tab will most likely always be the one that opens at the current state of things. 2) from there you can flip over to the other tabs (input, output, crew or house). The windows that open after clicking to the tabs, lead to functions or info that every player needs when playing. 3) Being at you current point of interest, you can then enter the "info" mode. The screens that show up here are primarily for newcomers, intended to explain the details that belong to this house and this tab.

Hope I could clear up this matter. .. and I thought it was all self-explaining , hehe :)

About your last minute idea about the coordinates: I like it. As I understood the debugging mode always shows the >coordinates in one screen corner (never tried it myself) but as you said, when „normal“ players want to report a bug >regarding a special building or a special part of a map they have to describe it in a relatively complex way. But I’m >not sure if players want to see that information when they don’t do bug reports. On the other hand could it possibly >be helpful in multiplayer games when the players make tactical discussions (just a guess; I never played multiplayer >too).

Yes, it should be helpful in any kind of referencing. I too think, that a permanent coordinate display might be too intrusive..

[bunnybot]

(by wolfsteinmetz) I have now done a mockup for a coal mine. I did this mainly to find out, whether I can come up with some useful content to keep the tabs' meaning consistent throughout the game. In this respect I am quite confident now. I think there is indeed useful information for all kinds of houses.

At the same time I have tried to make a better distinction between the "tabs", that most players will use regularily, and the "info" or "help" pages that are primarily for newcomers' use.

I personally don't think it is confusing, more to the opposite, but others should evaluate that.

I have a feeling that this would indeed be a major undertaking to redesign the windows like this. Exactly how hard, and how much work that would be, I cannot fathom. There are quite a few feature request and bug reports related to these windows, (see previous versions) and this design seems to amend most. I am calling on the programers to decide whether it's worth to go for this. If you want another building as an addition example. please let me know.

Please use the (for all OSes readily available) Adobe reader (from of cost) for viewing, otherwise the linking my not work.

[bunnybot]

(by elisabeth) I see… Well, if I open a help window, I expect it to be a seperate window (I think that’s the standard behaviour in most cases), that’s why I was confused.

Another thing is that I’m not sure whether you really need the right arrow. Do you really think there will be a building that needs for some beginner infos more than one page? It’s just, if you have a right and left arrow and you use the right arrow then the left arrow should bring you back to the previous page. Is that what you had in mind or should the left arrow nevertheless guide you back to the original window?

[bunnybot]

(by wolfsteinmetz) Well, SirVer asked to include more information that should be readily available from these windows. That's how I came to include this sort of help pages within the windows for the different houses.

I have thought quite a bit about that concept and I see many advantages from a didactic point of view. I think, when someone stumbles across a game like WL and wants to give it a try, most people are unwilling to bother with a manual or even the online help. In fact, I must admit, I did likewise :) My advantage was, that I knew Settlers well; but a lot of younger folks won't. So the idea of having concise information in little pieces available right from the window (that you have opened anyhow), and at the moment you actually need it, seemed a good one. I still think so. When all buildings on WL were equipped with those info pages, it would cover most of what a players needs to know. And the fact that "help" and "detailed info" are not separated may in fact be an advantage.

Another thing is that I’m not sure whether you really need the right arrow. Do you really think there will be a building that needs for some beginner infos more than one page?

I don't know. I included the "right arrow" mainly to show that this is extendible. In a situation like the one that we have now, where it is unclear what devices should be supported (and what resolutions), where the size of buttons and windows is discussed, I really cannot decide about the window size and font size, before these decisions are made. So I tried to prepare for everything. On a 24+" screen running 1600x900 I could easily go down to 12 pt. font sizes, and so not cover too much of the active display, but you probably wouldn't be able to read that on a 12" tablet.

It’s just, if you have a right and left arrow and you use the right arrow then the left arrow should bring you back to the previous page. Is that what you had in mind

Exactly!

or should the left arrow nevertheless guide you back to the original window? The left arrow in the "help-screens" will bring you back to where you came from, step by step until you're back on one of the tabs for the house display. This is true for one, two, or even more help-pages (though I hope we never need more than 2). You can check out the functionality; the red squares are links to different views of the document and simulate the logic.

[bunnybot]

(by wolfsteinmetz) Here is Lumberjack's house made along the same pattern. This was chosen because there is not very much information to pass on with this house. I think it still is possible to have some useful look-up data on the tabs, and some Newbie - info on the help screens. . Slightly changed graphical layout.

[bunnybot]

(by hjd) Ok, I haven't looked at all the suggestions but there are a lot of good ideas here. I have one objection though. How it is sketched now, the suggested info button will have different behaviour in the building overview (help about building) and on workers tab (help about workers). However, for a player there is no way to know that this button behaves differently in this tab, especially when none of the other buttons change behaviour. Typically a new player may try out all the buttons in the default tab to see what they do, but will not check them again when switching to another tab when the buttons look identical. Therefore players will not know that this offers additional information. My suggested fix is to combine the help presented when clicking on the button, so it will show help for both the building and the worker (with headlines if that is appropriate).

I will likely have more comments later.

[bunnybot]

(by elisabeth)

However, for a player there is no way to know that this button behaves differently in this tab, especially when none of the other buttons change behaviour.

Yes, that’s true. The only thing that suggests a different behaviour is the placement on the right side far away from the other „same behaviour buttons“ to the left. But I see two other possibilities to fix this:

1. You could, as I thought in the first place, make the help window independent from the buildings window, so that the button would open a new window (if not already open) at the corresponding page with the possibility to browse through the pages with the arrow buttons.
2. b) The browsing could be corresponding itself. Means: If you switch the tab, the help will change too and if you turn a page in the help the tab will switch too.
3. The info button itself could be marked with the tab icon, so that every tab has another info icon.

[bunnybot]

(by wolfsteinmetz) I see hjd's point, and it should be ironed out in some way. All of Venatrix's suggestions are nice, and I have no preference for one.

Just 2 thoughts, though: 1) I am a bit worried about covering too much of the game window by opening up yet another window for the help pages. But I may be wrong. It all depends on the resolution you use in the game. If we seriously consider a rework of the windows along these lines, we must take extra care, that the info on the help pages is something easily remembered and not of the kind, that you'd like to keep the help pages opened. If we succeed in this, an additional help window has clear advantages. 1b) will probably only work if indeed both window (tabs and help) are visible at the same time. Otherwise you don't see they are linked. 2) For this, the "building tab" which currently shows the menu.png version of the building should use an generalized icon to be better recognizable. That said, this would be the easiest way, perhaps.

I have modified the lumberjack file to reflect Venatrix's idea #2 (attached here)

[bunnybot]

(by sirver) Aaaalrighty, I finally found the time to look through all this and I can only say: Fantastic work!

Here are my 2ç: I agree that the Info button should always to the same, no matter on which tab you are; I think all the help info could be combined into a floating text + tables that could be partially autogenerated and partially described in the conf files. I would also include informations like what is generated how, what costs the house, what do you get from dismantling and so on in here.

One gripe I have is with the Lumberjack: When you open the window you are on the "input" tabs, but as there are no inputs, there is instead a small help text that feels completely out of place (for me). I see two possibilities:

1) open on some other tab, but keep the input tab available, but just without any content 2) open on some other tab and hide the input tab completely. This is not perfect, because it means that the windows for various constructionsites are different.

Otherwise I think this can be seen as triaged. Now we only need someone working on this!

[bunnybot]

(by wolfsteinmetz) Very quick since I must go afk: @Sirver. I naturallly assumed that all the house windows open, showing the most useful tab (which in general is what you see now) - the "worker tab" in the case of the lumberjack. What do you thing of inlcuding the coords? Approved?

[bunnybot]

(by wolfsteinmetz) Back, and with more time now...

SirVer: ... I agree that the Info button should always do the same, no matter on which tab you are;

Not sure, what you want to say here, SirVer. Generally speaking, it does do the same on all tabs: It provides additional information on the tab's subjct. (I.e. Input, Output, Crew and House). So, you want to see the same information appearing, when the "i"-button is pressed, no matter on from which tab? That would severly cripple the system. And the amount of information seems to much to include in one text, and would cover too much of the screen. Please consider, that this is supposed to provide in-game information (as in game-help) for newcomers. I fear nobody will want to read lengthly texts while playing. Just to make sure, my idea is really made clear, I add here a little chart that shows my intentions.

SirVer: I think all the help info could be combined into a floating text + tables that could be partially autogenerated and partially described in the conf files.

Again, I am not quite sure (sorry!) what you mean by "floating text". Something like a bubble help? If it gets easy enough for my skills, I'll volonteer to write and maintain such texts.

Sirver: I would also include informations like what is generated how, what costs the house, what do you get from dismantling and so on in here.

I think I have all of this covered. I wished I understood the "here" clearly :)

SirVer: Now we only need someone working on this!

True :) I'd be happy to help any programer who wants to tackle this.

[bunnybot]

(by sirver)

What do you thing of inlcuding the coords? Approved? Feels sluggish to me. I only see it as useful for bug reports. When I tell you: "check the lumberjack at 32,12", you would need to click through various buildings to find the coordinate as it is not displayed elsewhere. So no, not approved. I can see the need to mark spots on the map, but this is clumsy imho.

So, you want to see the same information appearing, when the "i"-button is pressed, no matter on from which tab? Yes, that would be my expectation to such a button as a user.

With floating text I mean something like a message box in a campaign (with dialog). The window doesn't need to be very big, but with a scrollbar you can get a lot of info across. Also if you keep the text in the first paragraph short and stick to a scheme for more information in the next paragraphes (the same ordering of content that is), the information overload should not be too heavy.

Frankly, I am not a big fan of the tree like help structure you came up with. I'd prefer one info button that contains brief information about all tabs for a specific window. It is more at-a-glance, the way I would like to have it for quick reference.

[bunnybot]

(by wolfsteinmetz) I agree about the coords. There are better ways. Like pressing a modifier key and let the coords be displayed at the mouse pointer. For testing purposes I play with the coords enabled anyhow, since otherwise I never know which opened window belongs to which house. (see attached screenshot)

SirVer wrote:

frankly, I am not a big fan of the tree like help structure you came up with. I'd prefer one info button that contains brief information about all tabs for a specific window. It is more at-a-glance, the way I would like to have it for quick reference.

"Frankly" should go without saying :) This is not about rewarding me for the work I put into the suggestion, but about an honest assessment for the benefit of WL of the content and layout I propose here!

I guess it all depends on the kind of users you are having in mind for the help or info displayed. What I intended was a sort of inherent context-sensitivity. The tabs themselves should show quick info that is useful even for experienced players, that do not need explanations. I think that one is terse enough. The info button was meant for general help and newcomers use and yes, it's a bit verbose, but should be clear for newbies. (Actually I felt a bit stupid myself, when writing such trivialities :) ), but we can hardly make ourselves the standard for a help system. Maybe I've overdone it. We have seen a wide variety of users' comprehension for the game, judging from the question we receive.

With the floating text, I'm unsure how to get some ordering and structure into it, and scrolling was something I've tried to avoid. For me it always transports the idea of "Can't see the end. This is long", and I don't want it when playing a game. But that may be just my personal perception.

So what remains and can be checked as "SirVer approved" ? (Trying to make it easy for you, not to push you, Siver! )

1) There should be a uniform 4-tab system that for each house (Input, Outout, Crew, Building) The tab to open will depend on the type of house.

2) There should be a new button to empty the house from the raw material it uses.

3) The window will show the house, the worker and his tool in the background.

4) There will be 2 buttons to undo the house: Burn down and "dismantle", the latter will empty the house first and save some of the building material by cost time.

5) The output tab will list the numerical relation of input wares to the product(s).

6) The output tab will give an approximation of the production time at 100% performance.

7) For multi-product houses, a production percentage will be shown for each product separately.

8) There will be a "flash order" system for multi-product houses.

9) The currently produced ware will be marked for such houses.

10) There will be an "evict worker" button for all workers.

11) The list of workers with their experience level remains, but the menu icon for the profession is shown additionally.

12) The "building tab" will show the cost for an ugrade of the house where applicable.

13) The building tab will also show the building materials that a dismantle process will save. Should it also show a time estimate?

14) The perimeter of sight will be listed with the house and for military sites the zone of influence, too.

15) The house window will be used to access additional information not contained in the here listed tabs themselves. The target group for this info, the way to display it and the actual wording for each house is not determined yet.

[bunnybot]

(by sirver) Hey, I am just voicing my opinion. I do not approve of anything, I only veto things that go against the spirit of the game :).

Sounds good to me. This is a lot of work to get right, but most of the programming should be rather easy.

[bunnybot]

(by wolfsteinmetz) So - I take it- nothing of all this goes against that spirit at least:) Well, this is a start. Now we're waiting for some programmer who takes a fancy in doing something like this, right? After all it could be cure for about ten wishlist items or bugs.... ANYONE INTERESTED ???

[bunnybot]

(by wolfsteinmetz) An additional idea entered my mind: We may want to have an element that displays the current phase the worker is in. (sleeping, resting, producing). For this a sectored clocklike (analog clock!) display with one hand could be nice. It would probably be located on the output tab of the window. I can create a mockup of this too, if ever this project starts to raise any interest with any programmer.

[bunnybot]

(by sirver) The help button for buildings is now implemented. See 696251. Note that I went for the "one window with long text" button that does not change depending on the tabs because I find it less confusing. Note also that I have not added any useful help texts, so that would be up to others.

[bunnybot]

(by sirver) Setting to incomplete for bug sweeping.

[bunnybot]

(by janitor) [Expired for widelands because there has been no activity for 60 days.]

[bunnybot]

(by kyromaster) I would also like to see this changed. A smelting works which only produces iron should also display 100% productivity.

[hessenfarmer]

the correctness of statistics has been questioned often in the forums. As we now have a new stats value for AI we could try to use this as suggested in https://www.widelands.org/forum/topic/4523/?page=3

[hessenfarmer]

I have started a branch for that https://github.com/widelands/widelands/tree/productionsite_performance

[gunchleoc]

Astuur's mockups

maneuvering_site_windows.pdf New_Colemine_window.pdf New_Lumberjackshouse.pdf New_Lumberjacks_house_V2.pdf New_ProductionSite_window_Sugg.pdf New_Toolsmithy_window_Sugg2.pdf

[hessenfarmer]

to make it clear I am just working on the productivity string. As can be read above SirVer implemented the building help different from the mockups for reason of more consistent help. Furthermore we have nearly all of the information now in the in game help so I believe we should just fix the productivity if any to close this.

[hessenfarmer]

statistics part will be fixed with #3645

[hessenfarmer]

graphics part was implemented by SirVer see above Statistics part got fixed now so I would consider this closed