Vietnamese previews

[vv-monsalve]

After pulling the latest files in the repo at commit 3ac9542e9f81b8bcc9fc96c3868c4715c8683f40, produced new fonts and run some test, these are the comparative images for the Vietnamese in the Family

Big Shoulders Display

Thin-Light-Regular-Medium

SemiBold-Bold-ExtraBold-Black

[davelab6]

Some things have broken. In the first image, the before is good:

The after is bad:

You can always ask @crystaltype to review Vietnamese stuff, although she is on vacation for Tet this week

[xotypeco]

strictly speaking, both are correct. second one is the preference in most cases.

I changed it because there is SO MUCH waste of vertical space with the acute & grave directly on top. also, hook was alredy off to the right, so it made no sense for acute & grave to be on top.

anyway, in other typefaces, for comparison:

here’s Recursive:

here’s Myriad:

I have been working with local native viet speakers on this

On Feb 10, 2021, at 12:48 PM, Dave Crossland notifications@github.com wrote:

Some things have broken. In the first image, the before is good:

https://user-images.githubusercontent.com/261579/107556518-82e94180-6ba6-11eb-9cf8-137fa179e4a4.png The after is bad:

https://user-images.githubusercontent.com/261579/107556516-8250ab00-6ba6-11eb-9985-341234406923.png You can always ask @crystaltype https://github.com/crystaltype to review Vietnamese stuff, although she is on vacation for Tet https://www.officeholidays.com/holidays/vietnam/tet-nguyen-dan this week

— You are receiving this because you are subscribed to this thread. Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub https://github.com/xotypeco/big_shoulders/issues/30#issuecomment-776930276, or unsubscribe https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AMRMUXG5OC3ZONZMO7FLMRTS6LIJBANCNFSM4XNOJXHA.

[xotypeco]

change in width is expected, due to change in horned u and o forms. newer one is narrower to allow better typesetting.

old:

new:

On Feb 10, 2021, at 12:29 PM, Viviana Monsalve notifications@github.com wrote:

After pulling the latest files in the repo at commit 3ac9542 https://github.com/xotypeco/big_shoulders/commit/3ac9542e9f81b8bcc9fc96c3868c4715c8683f40, produced new fonts and run some test, these are the comparative images for the Vietnamese in the Family

Big Shoulders Display

Thin-Light-Regular-Medium

https://user-images.githubusercontent.com/48698976/107554275-ba0a2380-6ba3-11eb-8292-0dbcff218bad.gif SemiBold-Bold-ExtraBold-Black https://user-images.githubusercontent.com/48698976/107554344-d1491100-6ba3-11eb-996e-5992f662fd02.gif — You are receiving this because you are subscribed to this thread. Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub https://github.com/xotypeco/big_shoulders/issues/30, or unsubscribe https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AMRMUXDY5QFU2A7XLCXB4NDS6LF7XANCNFSM4XNOJXHA.

[vv-monsalve]

anyway, in other typefaces, for comparison:

Just in case, the images aren't displayed.

strictly speaking, both are correct. second one is the preference in most cases.

The position is valid and sometimes even preferred. However, the legibility of stacked diacritics is crucial, thus you would like to review:

• the proximity between marks (both horizontal and vertical, e.g. horn + tilde; tilde + circumflex)
• the distance to the glyph (e.g. circumflex or tilde)
• the size of the diacritic (e.g. tilde could be subtle narrow and some of the above would improve)

[xotypeco]

sorry, didn't realize images weren't getting through

here's old vs new forms

and here's the images I added as reference from other fonts, recursive and myriad

I don't know how factual this is, but I was told that the reason for strictly vertical static king diacritics is older metal typesetting being unable to tuck them to the right.

tucked seems to be the preference, since it's closer to how the forms are added when they're being written: circumflex is added first, then the secondary form. (plus it's more compact and less visually jarring.)

will look at legibility again, thanks viviana.

[vv-monsalve]

tucked seems to be the preference, since it's closer to how the forms are added when they're being written: circumflex is added first, then the secondary form. (plus it's more compact and less visually jarring.)

Yes, this is what I meant by 'preferred'. The position itself is not the issue, but to ensure the legibility by checking the above. Those were part of the observations done by Crystaltype on another project ;)

[vv-monsalve]

PS. Please wait for me to push the new files. Thanks!

[xotypeco]

PS. Please wait for me to push the new files. Thanks!

will do.

[xotypeco]

Vietnamese updates made and pushed.

changed:

tilde is significantly narrowed horizontally throughout the weights (by eighty units in most cases) grave and acute narrowed a bit at the bottom of the form grave and acute moved away from circumflexes macron is vertically thinner, and closer to tilde (so are grave and acute)

not related to the Vietnamese, but I also noticed the files' basic dimensions hadn't gotten updated with the upscale from 1000 UPM to 2000 UPM, so I corrected those in all weights, in the interface (but not in any custom parameters).

so, for example, all the values here are doubled from what they previously were.

[vv-monsalve]

Hi @xotypeco, New Vietnamese previews after pulling the latest files in the repo at commit 7029d4192528e4c6dabb718eff81565478af7880, produced new fonts and run some test.

I only saw changes in the Big_Shoulders.glyphs Are this already included for the Inline and Stencil variants?

Bigh Shoulders Text

Big Shoulders Display

[xotypeco]

changes aren't included in Stencil or Inline yet. wanted to make sure it worked before going into those two. ok to do so since these now export & read ok?

[vv-monsalve]

Well, my source of doubt was in the lighter weights, particularly at small sizes as the more demanding scenario. So after inspecting the BigShouldersText-Thin in detail, I would suggest the following:

• Dot below should be to the right of "y.". It is the used way as it saves vertical space and in Vietnamese "y." isn't followed by another letter, so spacing is not a problem.
• Breve looks like is touching the A in small sizes.
• In đ, the length of "-" could be increased to the left to increase legibility. Same for Đ but centred or maybe a little bit to the right.
• Hook above loses legibility at small sizes and could be confused with another mark, like grave.
• Grave and acute look lighter than the other marks.

BigShouldersText-Thin 16pt

BigShouldersText-Thin 21pt

BigShouldersText-Thin 36pt

[xotypeco]

Dot below should be to the right of "y.". It is the used way as it saves vertical space and in Vietnamese "y." isn't followed by another letter, so spacing is not a problem.

you mean, like this? verifying because I haven't seen that. if so, cool!

[vv-monsalve]

you mean, like this? verifying because I haven't seen that. if so, cool!

Yes, like that, cool indeed :)

[xotypeco]

done and pushed per suggestions above. the hook is bigger now but not by a ton. I'm honestly not worried about some difficulty in reading at anything below 24pt; this is a titling face & is being used as such citywide.

apologies for delays. as before, haven't done this in Stencil or Inline in case problems occur in the regular fonts.

[vv-monsalve]

I've pulled the latest files at commit 8d075eaccf9edb4a127f218b71a150ace943c9a5 and performed som comparisons with the previous font. The change on the hook is not noticeable.

[xotypeco]

I'm fine with the hook. it's never being used this small; it's for headlines. grave, acute, and bar through D & d are much better.

[vv-monsalve]

I'm fine with the hook. it's never being used this small; it's for headlines. grave, acute, and bar through D & d are much better.

Please bear in mind that being published in Google Fonts, the number of users could grow exponentially and therefore the uses, and they would differ from the uses that the city as it's natural niche make of the font. Also, the previews here correspond to the Text family.

Maybe @crystaltype could give an expert opinion here :)

Other than that, please bring these Vietnamese improvements to the Inline and Display variants and let me know when they are ready to continue with the publishing process.

[xotypeco]

all this is pushed in regular, Stencil, and Inline. Inline's tilde has been further narrowed by quite a bit, so you'll more than likely notice that.

[vv-monsalve]

@xotypeco These are the latest images for BigShoulders after commit 4eb801fd9a8dc7c264144a8bcddae964986bb99d Please, don't change anything in the sources yet, as I'm going to push new files.

Text Family

OS X High Sierra Safari_11 Windows 10 Chrome_71 Windows 10 Edge_18

[vv-monsalve]

SemiBold, Bold, ExtraBold, Black

OS X High Sierra Safari_11 Windows 10 Chrome_71 Windows 10 Edge_18