Training implants and a huge revival of what godforsaken "RP" we have

[ParagonPrime]

The Problem

Powergame, metaknowledge, and general frustration everywhere! There's two aspects to this problem:

• The antag-experts: Simply put, the fact that people know EVERYTHING about any given antag and their antag gear; holding a pen in public is enough to make you extremely suspicious, and god forbid you want to play pizza delivery man. Part of this is alleviated by disguised items, but part of this will also be solved by The Solution
• The job-stealers: Everybody hates being a med doctor and having some random idiot who slipped on a banana peel casually stroll into medbay and cryo themselves. Or the non-engineers who instantly flood to a breach to patch all the holes even though they're fucking cargo techs or something. The whole point of certain jobs is being stripped away by excessive meta-knowledge on how to do everything.
• The greytide-vigilantes: An interesting subcategory, but one that exists nevertheless; people who do their job fully most of the time, but when shit hits the fan, they suddenly become unprecedented experts in everything from hacking to medicine.

Thus, I present...

---

The Solution

Two main points: knowledge levels and training implants.

Knowledge Levels would, simply put, be your ability to identify and use equipment, both on station and... less legal. This is a game mechanic, not an RP mechanic. How does that work? Well, let's take two examples:

1. Let's say you stumble upon a Syndicate powersink. If you're in security or engineering, you are instantly able to identify what it is, what it does, and how to deal with it. If you're not in either of those departments, its physical model will be there- but mousing over it will show "unknown object" and its description will say "you're not sure exactly what this is, but it doesn't look entirely legal...". If you attempt to interact with it without having the appropriate knowledge, bad things will probably happen, depending on what the object actually is. So, trying to open a powersink with a screwdriver without having engineering expertise will probably lead to very, very nasty electrocution.
2. Let's also say you spot a cryo chamber without being in Medical. You will, of course, know what it is- but upon attempting to self-cryo like the little powergamer you are, there's a very high chance of being unable to activate it ("you fiddle with the control panel, but you simply don't have the expertise to use this correctly!"). This also extends to just doing random things, such as hacking (higher chance of electrocuting yourself, or cutting wires not being instant), building (slower build times, chance of messing up and dropping things/hurting yourself), etc.

Knowledge Levels would be simplified into three levels: Unaware/Suspicious, Familiar, and Trained.

• Unaware would apply to, for instance, an assistant and the Particle Accelerator. You have just about no clue how to operate the thing and will probably fuck up terribly if you try.
• Suspicious is the same as Unaware, except Unaware applies to legal station items- things that you can recognize for what they are, but not know how to operate at all. Suspicious, on the other hand, applies to illegal items such as an emag. You would instantly be able to tell that this is not a legal thing, and you should probably give it in to Security- but it's still pretty fruitless to use it. (90% chance of failing upon attempted use; "you try to use the weird card-like thing, but just can't figure out what to put where!"). Also applies to tomes for all but the Chaplain; you know that that's pretty illegal and that the posessor should be arrested, but only the Chaplain can go "that's the tome of the NARSIE cult"
• Familiar would be the odd middleman category mostly applying to Sec, Engineering, and Science, especially with illegal items; for instance, a Sec officer and an aforementioned powersink. You know what it is, and that it is ILLEGAL AS ALL HELL, but trying to mess with it will probably lead to you getting electrocuted (at a lower risk than Suspicious). Scientists and Engineers would also have this Knowledge Level for a fair few illegal items; for instance, Scientists would be able to identify an emag and the general gist of what it can do, but still have a bit of issue actually USING it. (As an exception, the Syndicate Nuke is by default Familiar to everyone. I mean, for christ's sakes, it's a pretty obvious nuclear bomb. Now, trying to actually interact with it without being engineering/sec...)

This also applies to medkits for anyone not in Medical; you'll be able to successfully apply basic medical items (patches/bruise packs/etc.) the vast majority of the time, but a trained doctor will be able to do it faster and with zero chance of failure. And that leads us to...

• Trained is what it sounds like. You can operate this equipment/perform this action/identify this item flawlessly; it's your job to. This is the Chaplain to cult tomes, Security to Syndicate weapons, Engineers to the PA, and most importantly, doctors to their cryo tubes (along with a bunch of other examples). More interestingly, this will also apply to chefs and bartenders: trying to prepare food as a non-Chef/bartender may lead to slightly unpleasant results!

If you perform an action sufficiently, your knowledge level can slowly increase from Unaware to Familiar- but never to Trained. I'm sorta iffy on whether to include crafting in this system, but let's leave it as it is for now.

Now, let's look at the problems there: "But pargon u dumbass, how will the game know what you are- people can change jobs"

Simple! Here's part two: Training Implants.

Training Implants are dead-simple "implants", more akin to the SE injectors than implants (in the sense that they dispose of themselves instantly upon use and can be produced infinitely from an appropriate dispenser), that are found in machines in every department (and maybe we can even have a room filled with each department's vendor). If you have an ID with relevant access, you can interact with the machine, eject an implant, jab yourself with it, and voila! You've retrained and now have access to all the information your department needs, both RP-wise and by aforementioned game mechanics. (Without losing your old knowledge)

This carries a few caveats:

• In event of a code red situation, the Medical and Engineering training implant dispensers become open-access, much like the medical machines already are. This means that in a real emergency where all of Medbay is dead, joe mcshmoe CAN jab himself with an implant and be able to heroically save the station with his newfound knowledge.
• Traitors, Double Agents, and Nuclear Operatives are, from the start, trained to use everything. Every other antag can be evaluated on a case-by-case basis (Cybermen hacking dispensers to transmit the knowledge within to their whole system?). People metagaming this fact ("hey, that assistant just used a sleeper successfully, LYNCH") will be cracked down on heavily.
• The Captain is a tricksy example as he technically has access to every dispenser, but he will have knowledge of Security from roundstart. A captain jabbing himself with every training implant on the station without adequate reason to should be punished under powergaming rules, just like a cap stealing his laser and space suit at roundstart.
• Distributing training implants freely for no reason will be a severe crime under space law, and probably frowned upon by server rules too. Obviously, if everything's falling to shit or it's code red time, distributing the training implants is very much accepted and even advised- at the discretion of the distributor.

---

Now obviously, this system won't consume EVERYTHING. Using a mop is pretty straightforward, as is operating most computers. And it WILL take a while to code, as a LOT of items must be looked at specifically- but I think, overall, once the system is finally ready, the benefits will certainly be well worth it.

And hell, it won't solve everything. But hopefully this is a start-

...and most importantly, it'll finally let med doctors do their damn jobs.

[MacHac]

:+1:

My main concerns here are a) Nobody likes being told not to metagame, and this will fuck a lot of people's routines, and b) This introduces a new way to metagame (Z0MG THAT GUY JUST CRYO'D HIMSELF TATOR TATOR TATOR) which requires more work for our (already stretched) admin team.

[ParagonPrime]

Well, as pointed out, screaming "HE CRYO'D HIMSELF, TATOR" should be labeled as very blatant metagame.

And this solves people being told not to metagame. They won't be. The game itself will prevent them from metagaming- sure, you can still know that the thing in front of you is a powersink, but you can't shout it over the radio- and, more importantly, you can't actually move it without calling a trained engineer.

Forgot to mention this, but it'll also reduce the amount of times the nuke is spaced on Nukies (though the nuke should get its own category- I'm gonna update the OP now, actually...)

[Super3222]

Seriously :+1:

I thought of a similar system for Knowledge Levels at a certain point, but instead it was more expanded and you could put a certain amount of points into each level.

CM has a knowledge system, where you put points into different areas (combat, medical, science, engineering, etc). I thought we could do the same for Yog, but alas we have shitty roleplay standards.

I'm going to be straight forward, I like the idea of Knowledge levels, however the idea of training implants is ehhh... Weird. I don't think we need it if we're going to be restricting players to certain limits.

Roles like the Captain should have a perfect universal familiar knowledge over every division. HoS being able to be trained for combat and foresnics, but only be familiar when dealing with medical procedures like cyro or cloning.

This'd be a step in the right direction for turning around our low rp powergame all-day and night style we have on Yog.

But yeah, like I said with the stat points and everything everything. I currently like what we've got here, but it's sort of forced in a way. I'll tell you what people are going to say ... Some people may want to be 'custom' and want to create their own stats and shit. Would that be a possibility or not? I feel like it could be interesting, to have an RD not having the mental capability of handling research, so he's lynch- I mean properly demoted by his scientists and stripped of his rank.

This is good.

[Rocks4Free]

Me likey. This would differentiate Yogs more from other servers like TG, and make jobs more useful. If we had custom configuration like Super said, then maybe we could have a limited number of points to give to all departments, 0 being unknown, 1 being familiar, 2 being trained or something like that. Certain jobs would not be available to choose unless you had the required knowledge. That way, you could have all required knowledge for a job, but still have a bit of extra knowledge for other character fluff. (I have a feeling everyone would just put it towards engi for hacking though, so that might not work.) Overall, well thought-out and I would like this kind of system.

[ParagonPrime]

See, I specifically chose to avoid the ability to customize configurations because I want them to be job-specific. I don't want doctors fixing breaches and engineers operating cryo; I want everyone to sorta be in their assigned place.

Though the idea of only being able to choose a job you have the points for is sorta interesting. Gives the incentive to play multiple characters if you don't want to modify the stats every time.

Training implants are there simply because there's no other way to enforce the game mechanic AND still allow job transfers to be in any way valid or useful. If you can think of a better system, please do tell.

As for Captain; eh, I suppose he should be Familiar with everything.

[ParagonPrime]

Also, idea:

You can surgically remove Training Implants. Would give an extra incentive to demote people properly and gives another use to the infamously-underused surgery.

[AdamElTablawy]

You should be somewhat lenient, too. I don't like the idea of restricting hacking, and I feel like security should be able to remove a power sink.

So say, an MD can't remove a power sink, but a sec officer, engineer, or atmos tech could. Jobs closely related should be able to do things, so that it isn't locked to one job.

And some things should be natural-it's easy for an assistant to apply a patch or a bruise pack, for the same assistant to cyro, he'll have a high fail chance.

Weapons should be universal for everyone to know. Being antag'd lets you know everything.

Don't fucking lock chefs or bartenders pls.

Same with build times-Building should not be increased or decreased.

Instead, make breaches and such more lethal. Like air draining a room knocking you down or so. Unless in a hardsuit.

And again, related jobs. Computers are naturally universal, janitors should be able to wire or repair, everyone should have basic repair skills (fixing APCs and circuits and such), piloting mechs should not be restricted.

[ParagonPrime]

That's what I'm saying- medkit medicine is totally universal. Just that having a doctor do it is a little bit faster.

Security I'm iffy on the powersinks, but bomb defusal, definitely, 100%.

Maybe not locking chef, but having a slightly higher chance to not mix drinks properly unless you're a bartender? But maybe that is excessive.

Weapons ARE universal; I think I forgot to mention this in the OP. I'm thinking that, basically, they should be functionally identical, but have different flavour text if you're not sec- so if you're sec, it's a "Stetchkin pistol" with standard description; non-sec can still use them (though maybe have a small chance to fail reloads?), but it's a "Suspicious handgun" with description "This looks really, really illegal... though you could probably operate it, if need be..."

See, I'm thinking that certain antags (read: cult, rev, gang) shouldn't have instantaneous access. Why? Well, if we use gang as an example- medbay is currently THE flashpoint of gang. If you control medbay, chances are you're going to win. But normally that can be done even if you've killed off all the Medbay workers; this will give an even slightly higher incentive to keep at least some of them alive to run your medbay for you.

And yes, I agree- computers are 100% universal. Repair skills... ehh...

I guess people crewing an accident-prone station WOULD have basic repair and survival training, but again, I think that engineers should somehow be able to do it better.

I don't intend to restrict totally basic mechanics to certain roles; just make those certain roles overall better at doing it. In whatever manifestation that takes.

Restricting (read: twisting RNGesus against you very slightly) hacking will hopefully reduce greytide and not actually affect the antagonists who have a proper use for it, so I'm still in support of it- but that's not the chief aim.

[Robertruler77]

All the yes. Playing med doc and meaning something to the joe greytider would bring back the fun to Medbay again.

(Adding this after the rebase would be difficult probably, but can and will end the tg clone line somewhat.)

[X-TheDark]

What about things like making chemicals? Will we have the "How do I press button?" thing. How about tablecrafting? Any changes there (Stunprod, Pneumatic Cannot, etc)? What about R&D - analyzing items/making them in Protolathe (and Science in general). Are mechs built by Robo only? Do we separate Robo/Science, etc.

[AdamElTablawy]

Make chemical? High chance of vending random chemical instead, or getting nothing.

R&D, science can do robo, robo can do science, but 'how do i press button' for non-jobs

[Super3222]

Some antags would be familiar in every stat, so seeing a chef make CLF3 and narcotics can actually be threatening. This is because they'd be trained prior to arriving on the shuttle, which is why we allow traitors to "metagame" how to operate every job.

Traitors, changelings, DA's, abductors, gang leaders, and nuclear operatives would be trained in everything.

This excludes, Unbursted blobs, cult heads, round start cybermen, gang liuetenants, shadowlings, and wizards, and any antag job where you are automatically injected into. They'll stick with their job knowledge specifications.

Of course if you are converted into an antag group, you wouldn't know EVERYTHING. But be valued for your job intellect / knowledge in a certain field. So people won't just randomly convert people with no strategy other than their ID access or their meta knowledge for how robust they are.

ERT commander would be as knowledgeable as the Captain. However, ERT medical would be trained in medical, but familiar in everything else. ERT Engineer would be trained in engineering, but familiar in everything else. ERT security would be knowledgeable in everything, but familiar in everything else.

This places ERT in a rank higher than the heads. For example, a CMO wouldn't be unaware on how to operate security equipment. But trained in medical.

[FluffySurvivor]

If I understood correctly, we're becoming tg's slaves again so I don't think this will be ever implemented.

[Super3222]

If I understood correctly, we're becoming tg's slaves again so I don't think this will be ever implemented.

Oisin clarified in the coder chat that we should ignore the things Xantam wrote in that forum post about the code. It was talked over, and I believe it was a mistake.

[ParagonPrime]

Restricting chem is a great idea. Agreed.

Crafting I'm a little iffy on, but maybe have a chance to fail when doing so? ("Your hand slips and materials scatter around you!")

In a perfect world I WOULD for the most part separate robo and scientist, but this is already enough coding to do. I think that, within a department, Knowledge Levels should overall be the same with a few exceptions (so a Paramedic would be slightly better at engineering than a med doc, etc.) My only concern is with Geneticist potentially becoming too strong as he has to be Trained for both Science and Medical, but I'm sure we can work around it somehow.

I don't think Changelings should have the roundstart knowledge- BUT they should be able to absorb it from hoomans they eat. Gives an extra incentive to be more specific with your killings.

[AdamElTablawy]

It will actually be implemented.

[ParagonPrime]

Wait, this or the /tg/ merge?

[AdamElTablawy]

Crafting should not have a fail chance.

Improvised things are things anyone can do.

The following things would be restricted to departments. -In engineering- -Engine setup. (Engi, CE, Atmos tech, security engineering guards, Cap, HoP) -Complex building or repair (Not basic shit like making machines, but operating circuitboards to insert, fucking with APC wires). (Engi, science, atmos, CE, HoP, Janitor)

-Operation of atmos pipes or computers. (science, engi, atmos, heads of staff. Turning it off or on is simple for all jobs and anyone can do it-changing the pressure values is more difficult.)

-Airlock programming (Engi, CE, Atmos, HoP)

-Wiring (Engi, CE, Atmos, Janitor, all of cargo, roboticists. You'll have a chance to just fumble the wiring and get ugly knots everywhere if you're wiring from a connected grid, or just tear the wire you're laying down. Will not affect wire art in the slightest, only connecting to live grids, and even if connected the worst you'll get is just tearing the wire so no powerflow comes through it, not ruining your art.)

-T-ray scanner/Engineering Scanner/Analyzer/RCD/RPD operation (You don't know how to use this device/You smash buttons on it randomly in the hopes of changing it's settings. They're fairly easy to use or at least understand in general for most jobs, but medbay and general service won't be able to use them, or at least use them ineffectively, or just get incorrect readings. To cut it short-engis, atmos techs, CE, Cargo techs, and in the case of analyzers and t-ray scanners, scientists and roboticists. All heads of staff can use it too.) -In medbay-

-Cyrogenics operation (all med staff/anyone with med access) Sleepers are simple enough to use for anyone. -Chemicals (all med staff, no botany. No. No more fucking botanists breaking in. You'll more than likely vend random chemicals in random amounts, or just get an unpleasant effect like being gassed with cyanide smoke, or just not know what the buttons do, and trying to use the chemmaster will end in garbage patches or pills or bottles with random contaminants mixed in with the chemical you were trying to vend. Chem heaters are easy to use. Scientists can use it also, as can roboticists.) -Virology (CMO, Viro, Med doctors, otherwise the pandemic will just print out illegible symbols half the time for you to try and figure out what the fuck you're doing) -Health analyzers (For non med staff, they only display the brute, burn, toxin, and oxygen damage of the patient, as well as time of death, not species, body temp, blood type, or chemical reagents. Security officers, all heads of staff, and scientists are also trained in it's use.) -Surgery (High fail chance for non-robos and non-medbay personnel, scaling with the difficulty of the surgery. Sex change has a low fail chance even for an assistant, brain surgery is likely going to be way more difficult.) -IVs (small chance of accidentally doing some light brute when attatching the needle, same as when removing it, for non med staff. Barely like 5 damage, just a small deterrent.) -Hypospray usage (it's not instant, instead it just acts like a regular needle.) -Defibs (Fail chance as well that's random, faster defib battery drain rate. Also does 20 burn to defibbed person.) -Genetics as non-geneticist/CMO (GEE DAD WHAT DO THESE BUTTONS DO -Cloning -(SHIT BATMAN HOW DO I WORK THIS THING for non-medbay staff, scientists, security, or heads of staff. In general you'll just end up not knowing how to clone and exiting the menu a lot or just fucking up the cloning process so the guy comes out with more disabilities and in a longer timeframe than usual, i'm not sure what I like more.

-For science- -R&D operation and usage of the machines to deconstruct objects-trying as a non-scientist, or non-roboticist, may lead to getting no levels out of the object and the object just being wasted most of the time, or just accidentally ejecting minerals, or printing a useless object that has a variety of random effects like the strange object toyspam thing. -Mech construction for non-roboticists and non-scientists (You're more than likely just going to break the mech trying to put it together if you're not trained.) -Borgs-Repairing wiring on a borg is difficult for most non-roboticists to do and you'll use more cable than normal, or just get no result. Hacking a borg's wires can result in you getting shocked trying to do so without insulated gloves if you're a non-robo. MMI insertion is for roboticists, scientists, med doctors, heads of staff, and security-cramming a brain in an MMI otherwise will render it garbled for a bit as though it was EMP'd. ("hey borg what name do you want" '"%!@@! ASSHOLE %(!^!#&^") Inserting an MMI into a cyborg shell or assembling a cyborg shell will start the borg off partially damaged and drained of some power, or just locked in a random module, or even just outright locked down. Again, gotta be scientist, robo, or medical. -Xenobiology (You might get no effects from the slimes you inject, or just not know what to do with it, or even result in random effects such as the slime you put in the processor crawling out and trying to eat you again. It's just going to be way more hazardous for non-xenobiologists, and you can't use the slime scanner as a non-scientist.) -Toxins (Fairly high chance of randomly opening the valve when attaching the tanks. Good luck explaining that to the admins.) -Telescience (it's all fucking gibberish to you. RAndom coordinate inputs, random backfires or warping in hostile mobs, might just teleport you to an undesired location.)

-For Cargo-

-Mulebot operation (You can't use the mulebot panel controls-easily averted if you just use the PDA cartridge.

Yeah not much for cargo it's basically babyproofed and you're not an idiot.

-Security-

Nothing. Anything security does is basic weapons shit, and sec is already strong enough without an autism simulator fucking you over if you try to fire a tazer.

-Botany- Using mutagen on the plants has a higher chance for a bad effect or random mutation than normal for non-botanists, non-HoP's and non-assistants. Replica pods, too, are difficult to use for non-botanists and so-you'll pull the guy out with clone damage. Or even worse, he might come out as a shadowperson.

-Hacking-

Hacking is fairly easy to do on most objects like the autolathe, mulebot, vendors, et cetera. You can't be a spaceman without knowing at least some basic shit like how to unlock supplies or restrict access or wires in general.

On airlocks, however, jobs that have no buisness hacking around into places have a higher chance to fuck up on wires and shock themselves, or trigger an alarm for the AI. It'll also disable powerflow for a shorter time. (Jobs that can use it are-Cargo techs, QM, CE, Paramedics, roboticists, atmos techs, engis, the detective, the warden, the HoS, the RD, assistants.)

-Everything else-

Unrestricted. Building is unaffected, as is general construction, all service jobs anyone can do (except the chef, fairly high chance the person eating the food will get disgusting messages like 'You found a wad of hair in your burger.' or 'This tastes like ass ate ass and died.' Combat is unrestricted to anyone-anyone can do it. Crafting is also unchanged. Anything not explicitly mentioned is unchanged.

The implanter machines will be indestructible to prevent people from being fucked over by a bomb into ever working in that department. Or, alternatively, ID access could determine if you could use the things in that department-if your ID has at least one of the accesses required, then you can do it.

On blob or War!ops, once the blob is popped or the ops declare war, everyone becomes an expert.

The Captain is all-knowing of everything and how everything works around the station.

All antagonists know everything.

The clown also has comedic access-they can use anything, but only for the sake of comedy. The clown powergaming doing R&D isn't funny-the clown screaming 'I KNOW HOW TO MECH' and slamming a bunch of random circuitboards and metal and mishmashed robot parts together to create an ungodly mecha stronger than the roboticist could make normally by sheer happenstance, or trying to cryo the HoS and accidentally putting him and the HoS in together upside down IS funny. NOt sure how that'd actually be enforced, but I don't want to nerf clown hijinks.

Assistants would be separated into several different types.

Engineering assistants, medical assistants, research assistants. (cargo techs are already cargo assistants so, and security assistant is basically the same as legal validhunter).

They have basic access to engineering, medical, or research depending, and can use the above items from that department and only that department. Engi assistants can't do genetics, but med assistants doing viro is fine. They'd just have a small fail chance in general due to being interns or newbies.

Obviously the above is just going to end in greytide assistants stealing entire departments but WHATEVER

[ParagonPrime]

I disagree on sec being able to set up the engine. Everything else with them is fine.

Also, while for the most part Sec doesn't have super-complicated machinery, there are a couple of things I want them to have restricted: -Sec should be more proficient with weapons than normal joes- however, the rift between Familiar and Trained here will be far smaller than with other equipment/work. For instance: when trying to recharge a laser, you may dick up and be unable to insert it without trying again; when reloading a syndicate pistol, you may mess up the reload; etc. So nothing really gamebreaking, but something to remind everyone that you are not a validhunter -Sorta shared with Medical: setting/viewing anyone's status or records using a sechud (or medhud) should have a failure chance ("you try to blink in the required pattern to execute the command, but screw up!") that opens a bunch of random windows or displays random data.

Implanter machines shouldn't be indesctructible because I don't want to see "lol floating implant machine in the middle of bomb-devastated medbay". Instead, they should be really resilient; cargo is also given a special option where, whenever one of the (two) versions of the machine on the station is destroyed, they can order a new one dirt-cheap. That'll lead to some interesting counterplay, I think, where you CAN sabotage your enemy's training lines in a mode like gang (but also have to control cargo for it).

Giving everyone free training on blob is... ehh. I sorta dislike it. As for warops- absolutely not. Considering how much time you have, if whoever has access fails to distribute training implants themselves, you deserve to lose. On the other hand, we could give Silicons an ability to interact with the machines and set them to all-access. Or a special command on the comms console, only triggerable from code red, that will unlock them. But absolutely, under no circumstances just "lol we shot the nanobots out in a gas cloud you're all magically medical experts now". Especially considering the fact that, in blob-turned-mulligan, security will be totally swamped with people they have to de-implant (to the point I almost want to give them a specific tool for removing training implants, used mainly for demotions)

I also don't like the fact that building is unchanged because, as said, med doctors fixing breaches when there's 5 engineers rushing there in hardsuits is a no-no.

Let's hold off on the assistants, shall we? Because I think the engi assistants will just steal gloves and figure out how to hack into places, and the med assistants will steal all the medkits, and etcetera etcetera.

Clown, I'm really iffy on. But I won't declare myself against it until I've seen it in action.

I'd be alright with all roundstart antagonists (except revheads, gangheads, and cultists) from knowing everything, but in the cases of rev, gang, and cult- fuck no. We want to add an extra, interesting dynamic to those three rounds, not keep them exactly the same. I'd be fine with them gaining full combat training and knowledge of Syndicate gear in the case of gang and rev, but being flashed should not teach you the intricacies of setting up and containing a black hole.

[matskuman5]

I have 0 coding knowledge whatsovever but I would be incredibly happy to see this implemented.

With the /tg/ merge we will still be able to make our own stuff, right?

[Super3222]

With the /tg/ merge we will still be able to make our own stuff, right?

This will have to come after the /tg/ merge. And I'm considering working on it.

[Oakboscage]

Paragon I fucking love you. This is the greatest thing ever. I would bear your children if my biology would let me.

[Chuggachar]

This is not the solution, as much as i agree this is a problem that needs to be fixed not allowing flexibility just kind of ruins the game. Its like you're streamlining the game. The problem needs to be fixed by the rules and the admins need to enforce them. We shouldn't need to be forcing this through the code. Part of what makes SS13 great is the flexibility. -Security will have even less to do -As mentioned above new meta will just come into play -Yogs isn't a heavy RP server, but this change seems like you want it to be Its always been a middle ground between light and high and thats what made it great -Restricting the way people play makes for no fun, there are just too many different situations for this to work.

[ParagonPrime]

But this IS keeping it at between light and medium.

It's restricting people- from doing things openly and widely accepted as cancerous, destructive, and harmful to our overall community. Greytiding, self-healing, validhunting- this aims to strike at all of them with different levels.

It encourages people to play their jobs for the benefits granted by their jobs. It encourages a tiny fucking bit of RP once in a while. It encourages less wild murderbone by group antags and more tactical conversion methods and targets. It encourages interesting counterplay in modes such as gang, where control of medbay is no longer the end-all-be-all if you have nobody with the expertise to operate it.

We've tried lax policy. We've tried admin crackdown. Truth of the matter is, and I hate to say it, but for the most part our admin team is INEFFECTIVE and even when they are effective, usually offline, especially on late-night ghost shifts.

This keeps all the good flexibility while removing much of the bad. Training implants aren't some precious rarity, they can be given out like CANDY by the HoP/generous clown/revhead/etcetera etcetera for the slightest reason.

This is a good change, and you and @darkwahn are the only ones who seem to be opposed. (Darkwahn, mind coming out and explaining your reasoning?)

[Chuggachar]

"It's restricting people- from doing things openly and widely accepted as cancerous, destructive, and harmful to our overall community. Greytiding, self-healing, validhunting- this aims to strike at all of them with different levels." This is the point of the rules and the admins, its down to the admins and the council if the rules aren't being enforced or are bad. This change will end up stopping people from doing things they should be able to do because there's no real way to completely cover all bases. So a player who wants to do something completely legit can't because muh powergamers. Which is why the admins should be banning the powergamers instead of just slacking off and letting the server fall into disrepair. There's a reason the server is being reformed, and its to stop things like this from having to be a thing.

[ParagonPrime]

I fail to understand a scenario that isn't in some way covered here.

It prevents people from doing a job they're not meant to do and can't possibly know how to do based on their current occupation; AKA, powergaming. It also prevents people from instantly identifying secret, advanced Syndicate equipment (ie, an emag) by just staring at it for half a second.

If you're an assistant and get shot by an antag, you limp back to medbay, where a doctor who has been bored all round perks up because he FINALLY HAS SOMETHING TO DO. You could either let him attend to you, which is why he has chosen to play the job he is playing, or you could hobble on to the cryo cell and leave him totally useless, depressed, and more than annoyed if you're anything like me.

Then that doctor, annoyed, walks out and spots a hull breach in a next to the bridge. Being an EXPERT AT FIXING THE STATION JUST AS WELL AS FIXING HUMANS, he then grabs a bunch of stuff and expertly repairs the breach before the equally bored engineers can come up from their department.

A miner passes him by, returning to Cargo. Except, oh wait- that's not a miner, that's a scientist who has decided to screw departmental cooperation and go mining himself for those minerals for RnD!

...obviously that scenario is a bit of an exaggeration, but do you see my point? I'm trying to make sure everyone has their fun, not just the powergamers who want to do EVERYTHING on their own.

[X-TheDark]

I also completely forgot to say that this is a really great idea. I'm thoroughly impressed by this. Giving jobs a reason to exist through gameplay mechanics is the best way to have RP. Probably not going to be easy at first, with the whole "The way it's meant to be played" thing, but this will be a good change.

Don't expect this before we have the NewYogs up and running (and relatively bugfree from our feature porting over), though.

[ParagonPrime]

As long as we can have it by Christmas, no problems ;)

[FluffySurvivor]

Wew, that'd be amazing. I am looking forward to this.

[ParagonPrime]

Oh, but this is just the first step.

I'm gonna publish part two tomorrow. Hopefully.

[Robertruler77]

Slight change on combat for levels, i think.

Non Sec/Miners should have a small nerf in combat, but its minimal. For example, harmbatoning occassionally when helpbatoning and vice versa, and using more charge with batons. Also, less potent with eswords, but still wrecking if prepared in CQC.

With ranged, again, less potent. Damage is lower (because you aren't trained 100% to always go for right between the eyes, just shoot the head logic), stuns are 10-20% shorter, chance to fumble reloads and less chance to hit target area. IE aim for chest and get chest shots less often.

Oh... and maybe have a small chance to accidently jam a conventinal gun that requires you to click the gun in your active hand to unjam it. (this should only really be done with syndicate weapons for regular crew. Would be funny to see Joe greytide disarm an LMG and jam it only to throw it at the nukeop and crit him.)

[ParagonPrime]

nah, defo no damage reduction, only, as i said, reload issues

jamming is a nice idea, me like

more charge used is ehh, accidental harmbston is ehhhhhhhhhhh

[Robertruler77]

Alright Paragon, but with jamming only your standard conventinals and the chance is only really an actual fear with syndicate or illegal guns. Jamming a riot shotgun... fumble the pumping, maybe. untrained, that shit definitely should have a chance to fail.

[EMT321]

Tie it to ID levels and you have a decent system. Implants are too iffy.

All in all this seems too restrictive in a few ways, and will lead to people being impeded for little to no harmful reason. For instance- a scientist getting expanded permissions to go and mine when there are no miners. How is that a bad thing? People sitting around bored will cause population to leave this server. There is a reason that hippie and TG have more population- it's because you are never forced to be bored there.

This screams more HRP then anything yogs has been in the past 3 years or so. It's a knee jerk reaction, and far too intensive for a coding change.

[Super3222]

Also sorry, previously I meant Captain should be trained in EVERY knowledge area. And the clown would be too, like Adam said, for gimmicks. So the captain and clown are forever archenemy's. One at the bottom of the food chain, and the other at the top.

@Robertruler77 I think there will be security knowledge to be pursuited. Like knowing security equiptment and forensics.

Here's some examples:

For the trained (security) and familiar turning on/off a baton would be instant. For the untrained (aka unaware), it'd take at least 3-5 seconds.

Operating a barrier would be difficult to operate with if you're untrained. However Warden, HoS, and Captain would be trained. Security officers would be familiar, at least knowing how to lock it.

Making legcuffs would take a full on 10 seconds for the unaware, because who the hell learns how to make legcuffs?

I could go as for to say switching modes on guns, applying handcuffs/zipties (cable cuffs will be exempted, so everyones universal with them) onto people, being able to activate flashbangs.

But with harmbatonning and damage, no can do.

@EMt321 However mining and cargo won't have any knowledge areas, aside from knowing how to handle a mulebot which cargo techs will be trained at.

The purpose of this is so that people don't run into medbay and fling themselves into cyro. That's annoying, and if you are conscious you shouldn't be wasting medbay's supplies. The purpose of this is so that when you walk into the R&D lab, you don't see a random assistant doing your job.

To the common powergamer who runs around and does everything, this will be a nightmare. @Chuggachar there will be room left for flexibility. SS13 rewards you for being able to survive from countless of experiences in certain job areas / situations, making you better adapt to the stations environment. I love that feeling inside of the game when the odds are you'll die, but you use your knowledge to get through those situations. I'm not going to kill that.

If you're following the rules properly, you wouldn't be doing:

Greytiding, self-healing, validhunting

So there's no problem. This is to stop people from TAKING OVER other peoples jobs for their own advantage. I don't think you understand that.

You won't know how to operate cyro, but if there's no medical doctors just break into the storage.

Furthermore, I don't think we should stop hacking. That has it's own punishment, and it's literally opening up a machines maintenance and cutting wires. Hacking has always been universal as long as you have a tool belt, every department has something to hack in it. I don't feel like we should stop that.

[Alblaka]

OVerall, great idea. As well, I've a simple fix for the 'he cyro'd himself TAITOR': Make it a small chance of success and a high chance of critical failure. Assistant McGreyshirt throws himself into cyro? 15% chance to heal, 85% chance to suffer 80 frostburn. Doctor McCMO sees McGreyshrt cyro'ing himself, and can legitimately not tell whether he succeeded by knowledge or luck.

[ParagonPrime]

EMT, that's ridiculous.

A. ID locking it is a terrible idea. You know what's so fun about IDs?

They can be stolen. Or lost.

And besides, havinf a higher-level ID doesn't magically teach you how to identify high-tech illegal gear.

B. the implants are not in any way permanent

with the HoP's sanction, all a person has to do to get one of these implants is: 1. get relevant access, 2. find a training implant dispenser, 3. jab yourself with the appropriate implant and enjoy your new abilities

you can add or remove them at will; adding is fead simple and removing can either be a decent challenge (surgery) or ez pz (Detrainer item)

super, mode switching and cuffing shouldn't be restricted- they're pretty easy to figure out

i'm iffy on leaving hacking outta the equation because that's part of the problem: the idea of "oh let me just allow myself in somewhere to greytide/validhunt/powergame". I say we nerf untrained hacking for now and see whether it needs to be slackened.

alb, that sounds like a good idea. supported (but of course it would be covered by the rules too)

[AdamElTablawy]

Allow me to expand on the former.

There is, excepting certain circumstances, no 100% chance of failure for anything.

If you try to clone someone as an engineer, there's that chance that you can't figure out what you're doing, and then you get a nice long cooldown before trying again. And then if you try again to clone someone and you do get past the fail chance, you run into the 'you fucked it up' thing and he's gonna come out damaged during cloning and with disabilities.

So yes, it's still possible for other jobs to do other jobs. But it makes it a lot harder, and a lot less efficient, than just going to the HoP and getting the training implant, or even asking any of the med staff for a training implant at all, ect.

These training implants are going to be easy to access, not locked away somewhere. So if you need access somewhere, the training implant is easy and fast, and as a result it's not going to be a serious issue.

It's almost exactly like it is now, where you go to the HoP, get a job change, you magically know how to do that job. Except, this is mechanics enforced, rather than admin enforced, so that you go to the HoP, get a job change, and you really DO magically know how to do that job.

I feel like the only security equipment that you should be trained in how to operate is riot shields, forensic gear, and flashbangs. That's it. Everything else is fairly simple-there's an on button, you hit the guy with the baton. There's a gun, you pull the trigger, if it so much as wings his nipples he's stunned. I disagree with giving security any sort of buffs in combat terms, seeing as they are already completely superior in combat, with instant-stun weaponry, general immunity to suspicion, and the AI and borgs generally on their side. But as for flashbangs, the det's scanner, and riot shields, I feel like an untrained crewmember would have a more difficult time using them.

[AdamElTablawy]

Also, I don't see an issue with 'he cryo'd himself.' Someone cryoing themselves without a training implant should be something for suspicion-someone who magically knows how to do every job is definitely suspicious and should be marked as such by security. Perhaps not outright screaming 'HE IS USING R&D AS AN ASSISTANT HE IS A TRAITOR', but definitely 'Security, there's an atmos tech in medbay and he's doing everything better than the CMO.'

[ParagonPrime]

Yeah, no, I have no issue with people wondering how the fuck that person who has no medical training expertly figured out how to do surgery, but what I REALLY don't want is "OH MY GOD YOU KNOW WHO CAN DO THINGS OUTSIDE THEIR JOB DETAIL? SYNDICATES! LYNCH LYNCH LYNCH-"

[X-TheDark]

As usual for these kinds of things, this would prevent powergaming (you can't do everything), but not metagaming (since you know what people can/cannot do with a modicum of success). It's a natural consequence of there being a game to play, not because of this suggestion.

Not saying that's bad/wrong, but that's just the way it's going to be. If some things can be done more successfully by some jobs (Medical can medical better, science can science better), there inevitably will be metagaming, that's just how it works, we need to accept that and stop dwelling on metagaming - it'll exist no matter what we do, that's why it's META-gaming - it exists above the game mechanics.

[awseomenathan987]

i do not like this at all admins are slacking in the first place and now they he to do this to??? hell no this would be way to much and i would have to have a wiki up all the time just to now what and what i can't do it would complicate EVERYTHING i hate how yog i turning into a server were there is more and more rules this will just make it worse this is making yog not yog anymore and i don't want that to happen

[Super3222]

@awesomenathan987

I believe you misunderstand how deep we're taking this. This will not complicate things / make them harder to do, this will prevent things from happening. If it doesn't completely prevent things from happening, than it'll slow them down.

Nothing big is changing, it's just restricting situations where you find an assistant doing all of the research.

For instance Should a chef walk into surgery and know how to implant a nuke disk into the clowns chest? Should a chemist know how to walk into robotics, make themself an Odysseus, and than run out of there? Should the CMO be able to enter toxins, create perfect maxcap bombs, and than march out of there?

This'll only cover the advanced parts of jobs which people SHOULDN'T be doing.

Unless they are a trained antag

[Cruix]

To be fair, if anyone outside of medical should know how to implant the nuke disk in the clown's chest, it should be the chef. He needs his ghetto surgery to get that sweet sweet brain cake.

[Super3222]

Hmm

[Robertruler77]

Make it Job access required so if HoP/Cap are walkabouts the CMO can jab a new recruit/Med Doc who just got thier card can jab themselves. The room is open to all (or maybe merge it with the Clerk?) but the accesses are required to get the implants themselves.

[ParagonPrime]

The whole point is that you can only dispense an implant if you have access. Using one is reliant on nothing, though.

[Super3222]

The systems are done, from the datum to the actual object.

It's just applying levels and requirements to objects/machinery. Training implants, I haven't even started.

[Super3222]

So I 100% completed the framework for this, all I needed to do was apply it to objects which was the extremely easy part.

However, for some reason it wasn't exactly added to my repo. I came back today, and tried to cherry pick it to another branch. Instead of going with the rest of the branch, it said it detected an 'error' and ended up deleting the knowledge branch. I tried everything, looking in the recycling bin, using git bash, EVERTHING to see if I can get it back. That was 718+ lines of code written on ONE file.

I'll try to rewrite it in the future sometime ... but for now I'm going to take a break

[Groudonmaster]

I am literally crying for you