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zotero / zotero-bits

CSL-related community feedback for Zotero
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Creator field type Uploader, Archivist, or Poster (for Film, Video, TV Broadcast, Audio Recording) #77

Open JohnLukeBentley opened 6 years ago

JohnLukeBentley commented 6 years ago

Among the proposed additional creator field types I suggest adding "Uploader", "Archivist", or "Poster" (choosing only one of those terms, or thinking of an alternative).

This issue comes to me in virtue of saving to Zotero (5.0.35.1) ...

Jeff Quitney. 1968. Basic Electrical Repair: Troubleshooting Electric Circuits 1968 US Air Force Training Film. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vWSXu4y14to.

... in Zotero this is saved as a Video Recording (which is fine) but the Youtuber who uploaded the video, Jeff Quitney, is saved to the "Director" field type. None of the other current creator types for a Video Recording, "Cast Member", "Contributor", "Producer", "Scriptwriter" would apply.

It would seem, in this internet age, we'll want to identify the hosting individual ... particularity as they might be the only (readily available) source for the work.

Alternatively youtube uploaders, who are uploading the works of others (let's assume they are doing so for the benefit of all, including the original creators), could be considered to be a "Publisher", in which case the Publisher field should be added to an Item type like Video Recording.

A third option would be to use the existing field "Loc. in Archive". That is, have the uploader be regarded as the "Loc. in Archive".

gracile-fr commented 6 years ago
It would seem, in this internet age, we'll want to identify the hosting individual ... particularity as they might be the only (readily available) source for the work.
Is there any style guide which requires this? Could you give us some examples?
adam3smith commented 6 years ago

APA style requires to cite YouTube videos by the uploader, even where that's clearly not the author, see the comment by APA staffer here: http://blog.apastyle.org/apastyle/2011/10/how-to-create-a-reference-for-a-youtube-video.html#comment-6a01157041f4e3970b019103da2c29970c clarifying the blogpost above.

denismaier commented 4 years ago

Shouldn't this be considered for CSL 1.1?

bwiernik commented 4 years ago

This would just be a mapping in Zotero of "Uploader" to CSL author.

As for a name here, I think "Uploader" is the least ambiguous.

HughP commented 3 years ago

Uploader is clearly relevant to the YouTube situation. However, in the case of YouTube, it seems that the Uploader and the Channel might be similar or the same — or different. As an uploader to YouTube I can have multiple channels. Channels are the distributors. It doesn't seem that the APA is clearly distinguishing between these. It seems to me that what the APA is doing in this case is identifying the distributor... But there is anther term which is relevant here in a broader context....

In a broader use case for materials submitted to an archive (physical or pre-print digital) the "Uploader" is called a "submitter". Very similar activity. Submitter is used in the Language documentation and archiving community.

bwiernik commented 3 years ago

APA is pretty clear that they want citations to the username of the uploader. If you want to include the Channel in a citation, I would enter than as a container-title. I don't really see a distinct need for uploader/submitter as distinct from author. An uploader is not typically cited any differently (e.g., with a different label) than an author.

HughP commented 3 years ago

In the case of Archived materials, if I were to submit a package of personal letters between my dad and the late president Eisenhower, to the Eisenhower presidential archive, then I would be the submitter, not the author or the recipient. Am I to understand your reply to indicate that I would be the cited author in the context of citing the archived materials, because I am the submitter?

bdarcus commented 3 years ago

if I were to submit a package of personal letters between my dad and the late president Eisenhower, to the Eisenhower presidential archive, then I would be the submitter, not the author or the recipient.

Clearly not, and I don't expect your name would even show up in a citation, unless it were somehow included in the title of the papers or something. Would it? At least I've never seen that.

I missed this issue earlier, but is not an "uploader" of a video on youtube effectively something like a publisher?

HughP commented 3 years ago

but is not an "uploader" of a video on youtube effectively something like a publisher?

I would think so. Many self-producers are also self-publishing, but there are other channels (in the historical sense of the term relating to network channels) on youtube which follow a more traditional model where there is a director - working for a sponsoring agency, who then publish the material and choose YouTube as one distributor or "channel" (in the sense of marketing channel). The uploader might be an agency which works for several channels (in the marketing sense).

@bdarcus Just one more variation, for the sake of concrete opinions, what if I were to scan the letters and then provide the scans to the archive. Would I then be "author" by virtue of creating a new manifestation (manifestation in the FRBR sense) ?

bwiernik commented 3 years ago

No, I don't think so. For things like YouTube videos or even "self-published" books, the publisher for the purposes of citation is the platform where the content is distributed--eg, YouTube, Vimeo, Amazon Publishing.

From a citation perspective, uploaders seem to be cited in the same way as any other author. I think it occupies a similar position as "cartographer".

dstillman commented 2 years ago

The primary creator type for Video Recording is Director, which is normally what would get mapped to CSL author, but it looks like there's a dedicated mapping to the CSL director. The primary creator type is what shows up in the Creator column in the items list and what an Author in another item type would get transferred to. Do we want that to remain Director, even though that's not the author in the citation output? (I'm not clear on how director is used in citations.) If so, that would mean we would just add "Uploader" as a secondary type and map it to CSL "author". You'd still see the Uploader in the items list Creator column if there was no Director listed.

dstillman commented 2 years ago

This actually seems kind of tricky. I could imagine a YouTuber being the "Uploader" but not technically being the director of their videos. Or for a media outlet where a journalist is ostensibly the uploader and star of the video but it was produced by a video team with a different director. Would you expect the Director listed in the credits to show up in the Creator column instead of the person whose video it ostensibly was? I wouldn't.

dstillman commented 2 years ago

Just to give a concrete example:

https://www.theverge.com/21555901/iphone-12-pro-max-review

Nilay Patel is listed as "Host", but two other people are listed as "Video". If Nilay is the Uploader (since he's the host and it accompanies his written review), and the other two are Director, Zotero would show the other two in the Creator column, but a citation would include Nilay. Seems like we probably want that to be consistent. How is Director used in citations?

adam3smith commented 2 years ago

Film citations and even YouTube citations are all over the place. E.g. for YouTube, APA cites the uploader in the author position, but MLA and Chicago cite the creator, noting the uploader elsewhere in the citation.

Even with Chicago style itself (and for films overall) the director is sometimes cited as the author, sometimes as the editors e.g.

Cuarón, Alfonso, dir. Gravity. 2013; (...) but

  1. American Crime Story: The People v. O. J. Simpson, episode 6, “Marcia, Marcia, Marcia,” directed by Ryan Murphy, written by D. V. DeVincentis,

So not much help here, but I'd suggest that treating uploader (bibliographical) as author and director as editor will be most easily understood by users. So default to uploader in the creator column and use director in its absence.

bwiernik commented 2 years ago

Director should be mapped to director consistently across all item types.

"Uploader" can be mapped to author.

In CSL 1.0.2, the audiovisual media creator variables are:

(series-creator should probably be labeled as "Series Creator" if there is a "Creator" field made mapped to author. perhaps there is a better label than "Creator")

I would make the default creators for various types should be as follows:

bwiernik commented 2 years ago

The creator lists for these types should include:

dstillman commented 2 years ago

Should Film not have Executive Producer too?

bwiernik commented 2 years ago

Ah, yes, was thinking that was exclusively a series thing, but I see I was wrong