Nerf poly range.

[Sanya2907]

Describe what you would like changed, and why.

Polies are impossible to counter with scatters. They just outrange them. It doesn’t make sense that support can defeat anything.

Describe the changes you want to propose. Include possible alternatives.

Nerf polys range to <20 so it can’t outrange scatters.

[LixieWulf]

manually fire the scatters. parallaxes. menders.

[Sanya2907]

manually fire the scatters. parallaxes. menders.

I would see how you will place lot of parallaxes while your energy is +150

[LeoSko]

manually fire the scatters. parallaxes. menders.

This basically doesn't work in PvP, because:

• one scatter can't deal enough damage to poly, and even more - to group of polys
• you will need a lot parallaxes (I tried - poly can just fly away from 3 of them), which cost a lot of energy and resources right now. It is simply not profitable
• mender don't help against a group of polys as well

Overall I support this nerf idea - poly being a support building unit ("replacement for building drones") shoudn't have such a long range for attack.

[Sanya2907]

manually fire the scatters.

Good luck here at pvp server where every second matters

[Sanya2907]

menders.

I don’t want to comment this

[LixieWulf]

oh youre a salty person who lost a pvp match. youre on your own then.

[SheepCommander]

@BlueWolf3682 he still has points based off of personal experience, and not having a response just shows they're right.

Anonymous — 'When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser.'

I agree with this suggestion. Even assuming that you can manually fire the scatters or that parallaxes are an effective counter, a support aircraft should not be able to outrange and destroy a defense specifically meant for anti-aircraft (even if early game)

[deltanedas]

if poly has missiles why not mono

[RouterChainsSuckk]

if poly has missiles why not mono

good point idk why anuke added weapons to pollys as their ai doesn't auto attack or heal (possibly to have a use for them with logic?)

[G0nTar]

Well, it makes sence for a "Support Build/Repair" Unit, to be "Less Effective" at "Combat" but still manage to fence on the battlefield, if a dedicated AA Gun can't take or out-range them, either the AA needs a range buff, or Poly should have a Damage Reduction//agaisnt Buildings.

I don't Think "Range" is an issue here, Poly needs the range otherwise it losses it's main mean of repair buildings, it would make it a pain to be at such a short distance to buildings in order for your Poly Missiles to repair them, wich have really bad accuracy already on it's own, ALSO it's projectiles are Really SLOW already, it can't fight against most Combat units on it's own or in small groups..

> Final Veredict:

• Poly Should Deal a Bit less Damage or Dmg Vs Buildings Or
• Scatter Needs (too) a Small Range Buff to Shoot Away Air Support Units, like it should in the First place.

As a suggestion, i may ADD, a Long Range "Almost-Mid" Game "Guided Missiles AA Platform" with ultra low fire rate, fair ammo/energy consuption, to complement Air Defense, since the tractor beams are not doing their job properly for what i've read above (could boost those too either way)

[itcannotbe]

Scatter is early game anti air IMHO.

[G0nTar]

Scatter is early game anti air IMHO.

What is the mid and late game Anti-Air Battery/Gun then?

I would love to see a 3x3 dedicated AA Flak Cannon, or any Mid-Game specialized AA, more expensive of course and with greater range if that solves the lack of longer range AA Guns (wich would be great since right now air units controlled by players can out maneuver most defences)

[itcannotbe]

And that's a suggestion, which discussion should be outside this thread.

[Ilya246]

If you're dying to being kited by polies something is wrong with your defense, not polies Either way, i think that what needs to be nerfed is poly's health, not anything related to its weapon

[LeoSko]

@Ilya246, if you tell something is wrong with defense then you might have an idea how to counter the fact of outranging, right? (tip: there is no way to outrange something that outranges you)

[Catchears]

3x3 dedicated AA Flak Cannon

Isn't that called a cyclone?

[marky0470]

what about using logic to boost their range?

[LeoSko]

@Catchears, To make cyclone compared to polys you will need:

• titanium
• plastanium + a lot of energy, space and time if no tar is available on the map

Also, cyclone requires ammo, which would usually be either plastanium itself (which is already not cheap), or cheaper ammo - metaglass, which would require just another step in order to defend against support t2 unit. 2 ineffective or the whole 3 additional resources to make seems quite an overkill for such a simple purpose.

@marky0470, This seem to be the way to go - like linking hail to scatter and using hail's range for that. But the whole process for that seem like not the right thing to do and more like a hack rather than a proper solution.

[Catchears]

@Catchears, To make cyclone compared to polys you will need:

• titanium
• plastanium + a lot of energy, space and time if no tar is available on the map

Also, cyclone requires ammo, which would usually be either plastanium itself (which is already not cheap), or cheaper ammo - metaglass, which would require just another step in order to defend against support t2 unit. 2 ineffective or the whole 3 additional resources to make seems quite an overkill for such a simple purpose.

I agree that a cyclone should not be needed to fight a poly, but you were talking about a 3x3 AA turret, which is the cyclone. It shouldn't be needed for a poly, but I would definitely call it mid / end game aa.

[Kyllingene]

>>> parallax.exe
ERROR: could not process command

[mechanarian]

3x3 dedicated AA Flak Cannon

Isn't that called a cyclone?

Yeah it legit says that the cyclone shoots clumps of flak in the database

also if you want turrets to only target air just use logic

[G0nTar]

Logic is not a solution to a PvP Fast Paced Casual Game.

-Where you can Spam "Early Game" a bunch of Polys 10-15 minutes into the Fight. VS -Wasting 30-45 minutes instead of doing anything else, to get to Late Game Turrets, Factories, Power Generation and so on, JUST to counter a Pseudo "Support/Fighting" Unit + You have to do it in advance and instead of doing anything else if you want it to work, wich is Non-Sence.

But i agree that, POLY is not the main issue.

I'm Gonna make a new Suggestion, ADD a Long Range "Early-Mid" Game "Guided Missile AA Platform" with ultra low fire rate, fair ammo/energy consuption, to complement Air Defense, since the tractor beams are not working properly for what i've read above (could boost those too either way)

I'll try to fight with and against Poly on sandbox to really check the facts that people are talking about.

[LeoSko]

@G0nTar

Logic is not a solution to a PvP Fast Paced Casual Game.

It may be both the cause and solution. You don't need to make logic while being in a PvP game, you make it beforehand. The problem with this logic is that it is cheaper to make 1 processor for poly logic than making several processors to cover your base with hail+processor+scatter combination.

[G0nTar]

Agreed @LeoSko , i have to add, the fact that we missed completly 1 key turret in the whole disscussion, the "SWARMER" Guided Missile Turret, it already exists, but it's not used that often (because of it's expensive build materials/ammo cost) wich comes back to buffing the Spiderman tractor beam turret just a bit. Still, Swarmer, it could in theory (it has a bit more range than Scatter) outrange poly, i'm testing it as we speak. Edit: It's 20 Range (scatter) VS 25 Range (Swarmer) Right now, if microed, Scatters stand no chance against a Poly Swarm, since i can shoot up to, not just the scatter closest to my Poly's, but the ones behind it too, without getting shoot Back. Poly Out Ranges and kills Scatters, but, an average group of 5 Poly's takes 20-30 seconds to kill a Scatter (if behind copper walls up to 1min), Poly doesn't Feel OP to be honest, don't think they need a nerf, scatters with a mender should last long enough to be a "negative" move, to attack controlling a Poly group, wasting base managment time... Below, adding a single mender, makes it hard but possible to kill all Scatters, but it takes a bit longer, enough for a defending player to react imo. (even if polys are logic controlled you still have a a bunch of time to take them down but that wasted ur time instead of attacker giving advantage to Logic users)

Still, this example is if the attacker controls Polys, we were talking about copy pasting a logic processor that does it all for the attacker.

That makes it a lose lose scenario for the defender if he has to take additional time to counter a AI controlled attack, and has no effective way, of defending against it

Now Trying VS the Swarmer next just to help figure it out for you

Well, Swarmers seem to End Poly's Aggresion (if you have the Swarmer in front of what you want to protect of course) with a walled (copper, even if it should be titanium if u have Swarmer n pyratite going on) 2 swarmers and 2 grappling + a Mender it's impossible to break using a full squad of Poly, but, it's way easyer to make a full squad of Polys many times, than the Swarmers to be honest, it's Poly's relatively cheaper "Lead, Graphite, Silicon) VS Swarmer's "Plastanium, Silicon, Titanium, Graphite & Pyratite (for basic ammo)" plus you need the tractor beams otherwise Poly can back up for free hits, but with a mender + walls i don't think you need the beams (since no one uses them cuase they are underpowered atm) Below, i Will try VS the budget setup for swarmer It seems, you only need 1 Swarmer n' 1 Mender to Stop a bunch of Poly's, expensive, maybe, poly can still out-range the wall in front of the swarmer, and anything around it, (that's when a decent working grappling turret would be nice) but just a few can hit it's walls taking up to 3min to break 1 tiny copper wall (amazing defence), instead of the whole group being able to hit everything when attacking scatters, as a side note, adding a single tractor beam, makes it really hard to aproach it, the beam can even kill 1 of your poly's before you kill 1 tiny copper wall would like to See a turret with more range but no splash, like single target AA guided missiles turret, or otherwise a tiny buff to AA range in general.

Because even if it's Tier 2, It's on the same range as the bombers, it should have a bit lower dmg vs buildings or long range anti-harrasment turrets need a small upgrade (I'm looking at you Spiderman tractor beam turret) or a new addition to the turret galore.

Imo I would like to see a tiny buff to the grappling beam turret

[SheepCommander]

So this is a lot. The general gist of what I got was

• Poly range isn't the problem, a health/attack debuff would be better
• Adding another early-mid game AA gun could help

[LeoSko]

Swarmer vs Poly is unrealistic scenario because of yet-another-3-resources (plastanium + titanium + pyratite) that I have to make in order to defend against 2nd tier air support unit.

Poly's range IS the problem. Maybe everyone above read it as microing the poly, but no - the issue is when it is being controlled by logic. Here is the example I made into a video (that should not be possible): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yEu8bavHS3s&feature=youtu.be

[G0nTar]

Swarmer vs Poly is unrealistic scenario because of yet-another-3-resources (plastanium + titanium + pyratite) that I have to make in order to defend against 2nd tier air support unit.

Poly's range IS the problem. Maybe everyone above read it as microing the poly, but no - the issue is when it is being controlled by logic. Here is the example I made into a video (that should not be possible): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yEu8bavHS3s&feature=youtu.be

I tryed it all on the editor, so it wasn't logic Controlled, I'll check it out asap

[G0nTar]

Swarmer vs Poly is unrealistic scenario because of yet-another-3-resources (plastanium + titanium + pyratite) that I have to make in order to defend against 2nd tier air support unit.

Poly's range IS the problem. Maybe everyone above read it as microing the poly, but no - the issue is when it is being controlled by logic. Here is the example I made into a video (that should not be possible): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yEu8bavHS3s&feature=youtu.be

Dude kmon, Your video is clearly byased, no one builds defences that bad. Not even my little brother.

Also you used Thorium and titanium to build all those turrets but the walls are made out of copper, you don't see copper walls ever at that point in-game, and even before getting to the turrets used on your video, everyone uses titanium "minimum" for defence when they already have thorium tech.

Also, With the fast forward it seems like it takes around 4minutes to take down a copper wall, for 60+ Polys, wich imo denotes that they are not that over powered, would like to see if you used logic to attack, if you can upload the logic you used to recreate that using what players build in actual games, not good players, but new to normal ones, so we can help test it out, wich may trigger more results

[LeoSko]

@G0nTar, the code can be found in comments if you really want to try this out (an old version though). I have numerous matches in my server (ranked pvp) where people use such logic which has no counters except for the logic that I stated in the video. Those are literally dozens of examples. Other possible counters are all impractically more expensive than just spamming polys.

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