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Tech Tree Contemplations, Part 1 #428

Open adoa opened 4 years ago

adoa commented 4 years ago

Contemplations on the Tech Tree of Angel\'s Mods, Part 1

This is only part 1, covering automation and logistic science technologies. This represents only about half of all technologies in the game. Part 2 will follow soon™.

We are doing basic quality control on the tech tree of Angel's mods. The developer @LovelySanta posted general guidelines to follow when doing this. These are my interpretations of the guidelines based on his post and subsequent discussions:

  1. Don't have too many prerequisites.\ Only add prerequisites that are required to build the new items/fluids unlocked. This includes a dependency on all technologies that unlock the first tier of machine capable of crafting the new recipes. However, do not include prerequisites for the materials required to craft the buildings that might be unlocked by this technology. If a technology only unlocks buildings, see guideline 2.
  2. Every tech should unlock something.\ This rule applies to all techs added by Angel\'s and Bob\'s. If Angel\'s mods strip one of Bob\'s technologies completely empty, it should be replaced by another technology as a reasonable prerequisite. In particular, at least one of the recipes unlocked should be useable when a tech is researched. Ideally they will all be useable but this is not strictly necessary. If a technology unlocks only buildings, make sure that at least one of the buildings is indeed craftable, preferrably the most natural representative of this tech. Prioritize new types of buildings over higher tiers of previously unlocked buildings. Do not include too many prerequisites, see guideline 1.
  3. Avoid surprises.\ Try and find hidden and indirect dependencies that players are less likely to notice. Put these in as prerequisites. If there are multiple techs that unlock the required ingredient, depend on the one with the least amount of science packs. This means to prefer an automation science technology over one requiring automation & logistic science. If they are on the same level, depend on the one with the least amount of prerequisites or just depend a logical common ancestor tech. Conflicts where half the recipes need a certain prerequisite and the other half don't may point to recipes being unlocked by the wrong tech. Or a tech that would be better split in two.
  4. Maintain plausible progression.\ In particular, every tech should require all of the science packs required for its prerequisite techs (when not playing with Angels Industries' Technology Overhaul). This rule does not apply when there are good reasons not to. Example: The vanilla tech physical-projectile-damage-7 depends on space-science-pack. The latter requires production science packs, but physical-projectile-damage-7 does not. This is plausible and acceptable. Similar things happen with Bob\'s logistic science pack (pink).\ Furthermore, the direct dependency on science pack technologies should be kept minimal. Prioritize depending on logical intermediate technologies that already depend on the science pack of this tier. Thus, we keep the tech tree more vertical than horizontal. When the tech tree gets too wide, it is unwieldy and the players will loose the big picture.

The Issues: Angel\'s Mods with Industry Overhaul

The following considerations are based on Angel\'s mods only with Industry Overhaul from Angel's Industries. The latter originated as the combatibility layer to Bob's mods. Therefore, it incorporates a lot of materials (lead, tin, solder, paper, resin, etc.), many of which have limited to no use (without Bob\'s mods or similar). In these recommendations I explicitly list these loose ends and suggest removing them. This could cause lots of issues for mod compatibility. Feel free to keep all the lose ends and ignore my recommendations to remove them. Feel free to ignore all of my recommendations.

Speaking of recommendations, I recommend opening the in-game tech tree of a new game with all of Angel\'s mods + Industry Overhaul when going through this list. Thus you can see what I saw and decide upon options.

Automation Science Technologies

Logistic Science Technologies

adoa commented 4 years ago

A savefile to sync to for the mod configuration: Angelsmods Industry.zip

adoa commented 4 years ago

To make one thing clear: My personal opinion is that guideline 2 (requiring that every single tech has to unlock at least one usable recipe or bonus effect) is more important than to remove all dependencies down to one or none as guideline 1 would require.

Hence, I believe that most dependencies on steel should be kept. The only exception is water-treatment that should only depend on electronics.

On discord, the issue arose that when we remove all dependencies, too many technologies could be available at the start of the game. This can be easily avoided by making them depend on automation. It is not clear why an engineer should be able to build an automatically running liquifyer or ore crusher/ore sorting facility while not being able to construct an automatically running assembling machine. I think that ore-crushing, basic-chemistry, water-treatment and angels-solder-smelting-basic should all (directly or indirectly) depend on automation.

On a personal note, I believe making more technologies depend on logical precursor technologies (such as automation or logistics) is a reasonable way of giving the tech tree more logical structure. But this issue was mostly about missing or incorrect dependencies as objectively defined by the guidelines – which is why I left out most of my personal opinion from the above contemplations.

LovelySanta commented 4 years ago

Some comments

adoa commented 4 years ago

I am happy that you looked at the concerns – even if you did not integrate all my suggestions. After all, some of my suggestions were contradicting, so no surprise that you cannot implement them all.

Once you finish the automation and logistic science techs listed here, I will take the dev branch and continue with the other science packs and post part 2 as a separate issue.

adoa commented 4 years ago

The implemented changes to the automation science technologies are fine. I like your solution for sulfur-processing-1 much more than my own suggestion ^_^

adoa commented 4 years ago

@LovelySanta Also, I think you misunderstood my comment on basic-chemistry. Your reply was

  • Tech: basic-chemistry You can already manually crush and smelt to iron and copper, it doesn't make sence to depend on ore-crushing, as then things like automation should also depend on ore crushing. Instead, I let both basic-chemistry and ore-crushing depend on automation.

But crushing by hand and smelting only gives iron-plate and copper-plate. The tech basic-chemistry unlocks a recipe for catalyst-metal-red which requires iron-ore and copper-ore. The earliest you can get either ore is via sorting, unlocked by ore-crushing. But as I said in the OP, this was just an option. It's totally fine if you don't make basic-chemistry depend on ore-crushing. After all, there is some new recipes that are usable without it.

Making automation depend on ore-crushing would really not make any sense. None of the recipes from automation require iron-ore or copper-ore. They do require plates, and those are available at the start.

LovelySanta commented 4 years ago

Some more comments on initial post

LovelySanta commented 4 years ago

Some more comments on initial post

adoa commented 4 years ago

I had another thought about angels-ghosting-angels-construction-robots. How about the following?

adoa commented 3 years ago

I double checked the automation techs. Is it normal that Exploration makes the gun-turret require an SMG, but the gun-turret tech does not depend on military?

LovelySanta commented 3 years ago

i'll add the dependency

adoa commented 3 years ago

Any plans on bio-fermentation and bio-refugium-hatchery techs? They still don't include logistic science prerequisites… Also the bio-tokens for the hatchery are somewhat out of place, as I wrote in the OP…

clarfonthey commented 3 years ago

Hey, I noticed that puffer refugium and butchery 2 only require red and green science whereas they should require agricultural science since they depend on hatcheries.

Also, repair packs 4 and 5 only require red/green but depend on things that require blue/purple science.

adoa commented 3 years ago

Hey, I noticed that puffer refugium and butchery 2 only require red and green science whereas they should require agricultural science since they depend on hatcheries.

The fact that hatcheries require plant-life samples (internal name token-bio) but their successive techs don't, was already reported in the OP of this very issue.

Also, repair packs 4 and 5 only require red/green but depend on things that require blue/purple science.

Those are from Bob's mods, and this was also already reported to bobingabout a couple weeks ago https://forums.factorio.com/viewtopic.php?p=518552#p518552 but bobingabout has not acted upon it yet

clarfonthey commented 3 years ago

Sorry, I had only slightly skimmed the issue so should have paid more close attention. The main reason why I brought these up separately was because I thought this topic was about completely rearranging the tree, whereas these are relatively simple changes, I thought, that would make things more consistent at the moment.