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https://forums.factorio.com/viewforum.php?f=185
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Bob tech levels in science mode #645

Open danyax opened 3 years ago

danyax commented 3 years ago

<html xmlns:v="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:x="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:excel" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40">

Buildings | Drills | Drills update | Large Area Drills | Pumpjacks | Pumpjacks update | Pumps, storage tanks | Punp and tanks update | Furnaces | Furnaces update | Assemblers | Electronic Assembles | Boilers | Steam Engine | Heat exchanger | Steam Turbine | Steam Turbine update -- | -- | -- | -- | -- | -- | -- | -- | -- | -- | -- | -- | -- | -- | -- | -- | -- Tire 0 |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   no or grey tech | Level 1 | Level 1 |   |   |   |   |   | Stone | Stone | Level 1 |   | Level 1 | Level 1 |   |   |   Tire 1 |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   red science | Level 2 |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   | Level 2 | Level 1 | Level 2 | Level 2 |   |   |     |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |     |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   Tire 2 |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   green science | Level 3 | Level 2 | Level 2 | Level 3 | Level 1 | Level 3 | Level 1 | Steel | Steel | Level 3 | Level 2 | Level 3 | Level 3 | Level 1 |   | Level 1   |   |   |   | Level 2 | Level 2 | Level 2 |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |     |   |   |   | Level 3 |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   Tier 3 |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   orange science | Level 4 | Level 3 | Level 3 |   | Level 3 |   | Level 2 |   | Electric 1 | Level 4 |   | Level 4 | Level 4 | Level 2 | Level 1 | Level 2 Tier 4 |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   blue science | Level 5 | Level 4 | Level 4 | Level 4 | Level 4 | Level 3 | Level 3 | Electric 1 | Electric 2 | Level 5 | Level 3 | Level 5 | Level 5 | Level 3 | Level 2 | Level 3   |   |   |   | Level 5 |   | Level 4 |   | Electric 2 |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   Tier 5 |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   yellow science |   | Level 5 | Level 5 |   | Level 5 |   | Level 4 | Electric 3 | Electric 3 | Level 6 |   |   |   |   | Level 3 |  

I compiled table with tech levels of bob structure so see how they fit into refining update and Angels tech tree in general. Some observations:

I have not touched ingredients as I assume they will be revised based on level and as part of further Bob integration into component mode.

LovelySanta commented 3 years ago

I'll put this on the list for the next release, as the cobalt impact might need a deeper look in these cases maybe.

Pezzawinkle commented 3 years ago

this won't be a quick job, but ill get started on it

Pezzawinkle commented 3 years ago

steam turbines are +1 tech levels vs heat exchangers. Before steam turbine 1 was on same level as steam engine 3

This is actually fine considering that the early "heat sources" don't actually run super hot, and that the temperature of engine 3 is the same as turbine 1, so pairing engine 3 with exchanger 1 is perfectly viable, and means there is no need to change the cobalt recipe... i have done a bit of a tech level clean-up of this, but again, that is highly dependent on bobs settings.

Cobalt was pushed to orange science which is not taken into account (blue belt require cobalt steel)

This is taken into account, these belts are locked behind orange?

drills use electronics block one level higher then most structure of the same tech level, for example, drill 2 (red science) require electronic block 2

Well, that is awkward, it seems the fallback table for the electronics was incorrect, did bob change the names to just override the vanilla ones... either way, that should be fixed in the next release (for reference, mining drills were covered by the auto-script, while some of the building like assemblers etc were done manually.)

The only thing left is to split the tech tiers a bit more evenly

danyax commented 3 years ago

On logistics - you are right, blue belts are under orange science, and depend on cobalt processing, so all is good.

In steam stuff: <html xmlns:v="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:x="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:excel" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40">

Buildings | Heat Source | Heat Exch | Steam Engine | Steam Turbine -- | -- | -- | -- | -- Tire 0 |   |   |   |   available from start |   |   |   |   or grey tech |   |   |   |   Tire 1 |   |   |   |   red science |   |   |   |   Tire 2 |   |   |   |   green science | Level 1 |   | Level 1 |   Tier 3 |   |   |   |   orange science | Level 2 | Level 2 | Level 2 | Level 1 Tier 4 |   |   |   |   blue science | Level 3 | Level 1 | Level 3 | Level 2   |   | Level 3 |   |   Tier 5 |   |   |   |   yellow science |   |   |   | Level 3

There is wrong level for Heat Exchanger 1 (should be green), the rest at least make certain logic. So with any new level of heat source/exchanger we can use steam engine on the same tech level but have to wait for the next tech level to replace engines with turbines, getting same performance but using less building space.

danyax commented 3 years ago

On drills: <html xmlns:v="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:x="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:excel" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40">

Buildings | Drills | Drills Large -- | -- | -- Tire 0 |   |   grey tech | Drill 1 |   Tire 1 |   |   red science | Drill 2 | Drill 1 Tire 2 |   |   green science | Drill 3 | Drill 2 Tier 3 |   |   orange science | Drill 4 | Drill 3 Tier 4 |   |   blue science | Drill 5 | Drill 4 Tier 5 |   |   yellow science |   | Drill 5

I think large area drills should be 1 level lower. They use same ingredients as normal drills, just different performance/area balance

Drill 4 and 5 use electronics blocks 4 and 5, should be 3 and 4. This is due to generic script that places top bob circuit to level 5, while many entities using top bob circuit are at blue science.

Drills 1, 2, 3 use electronics blocks 0, 1, 2 which is correct.

Pezzawinkle commented 3 years ago

steam system table

I have fixed this now, thanks for clarifying this... I think it may actually be better to rebuild bobs recipes and tech tree from the ground up, instead of using the auto-replace script tbh. The auto replace script was kind of meant to be a safety net, but clearly it is not good for balancing.

I have some ideas for this, but it won't be a quick implementation, so any changes made to those at this stage could be considered treading-water.

danyax commented 3 years ago

I think it may actually be better to rebuild bobs recipes and tech tree from the ground up, instead of using the auto-replace script tbh. The auto replace script was kind of meant to be a safety net, but clearly it is not good for balancing.

Can't agree more! With all bob plates and intermediaries I think no automatic script will do the trick. There also structural differences, like bob having one less tiers of circuits and (kind of) one less tier of science then Angel, so any mapping will either have gaps (as of now) or leave one Angel's tier unused in Bob entities. But many Bob buildings nicely fit into 5 Angels science tiers, looking even better that on Bob's 4 tiers. Same goes to ingredients - logical use of Angel components in Bob structure would require manual work.

I would suggest to lock down certain bob settings to make think more simple, like forcing on belts, inserters, pipe overhauls.

I understand that Angel mods can run with many mod combinations, but with science overhaul you already implemented half of Bob metals, so in this mode defining more specific requirements on which bob mods should be present and locking down certain Bob settings will make not just your life easier but players life as well.

I you embark on that journey I am willing to be tester. I very much like to start new megabase, but now waiting for new science overhaul to stabilize a bit. Also will be looking into balancing issues, they are so visible on megabase level.

Pezzawinkle commented 3 years ago

So are we happy to pick some priorities and call it done for the upcoming release? I can start working on a proper bobs integration (I kind of want to fix a mapping issue for bobs in its "vanilla" settings) I also want to add a script to remove previous tier building in components mode (there are about 5 ways to do this, so i need to figure out which is going to be better)

danyax commented 2 years ago

Update on latest Dev branch:

<html xmlns:v="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:x="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:excel" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40">

  | Boiler | Engine | Heat Src | Heat Exch | Turbine | Heat Pipe -- | -- | -- | -- | -- | -- | -- red | 2 | 2 |   |   |   |   green | 3 | 3 | 1 | 1 |   | 1 orange | 4 | 4 | 2 | 2 | 1 | 2 blue | 5 | 5 | 3 | 3 | 2 | 3 yellow |   |   |   |   | 3 |  

Boiler 4 uses construction frame 5, not availabe on orange level Engine 4 uses titanium bearing, not availabe on orange level. Titanium processing tech should be moved to orange level Heat source 2 uses construction frame 5, not availabe on orange level Heat exchanges 2 uses construction frame 5, not availabe on orange level Steam turbine 1 uses electronics block 2, better replace with electronics block 3 as it is orange level tech

RuffertoNGroo commented 2 years ago

Also note Logistics Robots require blue science but advanced logistic and construction robots 1 only requires orange science .