Technology/machine tiers overhaul introduced last patch feels kinda annoying balance-wise

[leandor]

Hey there, sorry to be a bit of a bother, but I don't know where else to post this, as the forums seem a bit dead to me these days :/

I'm currently finding that I don't like the machine restricted recipes introduced last patch. They may seem to make sense balance wise at first, but the change leads to bad gameplay and wasting time rebuilding stuff that you shouldn't need to.

Here's the situation I am at the moment, just finished implementing T3 ore sorting, got a lot of cobalt and titanium ore and I'm ready to implement the processes needed in order to be able to create the T4 machines for the first time. At the moment, I only have access to T3 machines (the ones that require aluminium/invar.)

So I need to create a trashy build that will only produce cobalt/titanium ingots the bad way for about a couple of hours to be able to create the machines so I'm able to immediately destroy that and upgrade it to the processed recipes... that feels artificial/padding, and wasting time.

But that's not the worse part, if it was only that it would be kinda understandable and just a minor nuisance at most. The worse part is that not only I have to waste time creating those intermediate builds creating the ingots, but I also have to create all the casting infrastructure using "plates" first... and all the logistics involved with distributing that to the places where they need to be used to create those T4 machines, only for a couple of hours at most, and later have to destroy all and replace it with sheets because the basic water cooled sheet recipes requires T4 strand casting machines, for no gameplay reason I can discern.

I already have all the recipes researched and unlocked and would have access to them if only the machines weren't restricted and I have countless of other sheet recipes that are being created with those same old machines. I'd understand it more if only the coolant-based recipes were restricted to T4 machines, because that's an upgrade and restricting those wouldn't bar you of having access to the sheets using the basic recipe.

I.e. it's one thing to require upgrades to new machines for better methods for processing ore or similar. but a basic item like the sheets should be accessible with the previously accessible machines too IMO. The logistics involved in distributing those products throughout the base is what makes it important to be able to go directly to sheets instead of having to go through an unneeded step in the middle.

But the basic problem here is the time span in which you have to build something only to have to tear it apart again a few moments later... it just makes no sense to me. If that time time were in the order of tens of hours or so, it would make more sense to me, but... you already have access to everything needed, so it's just a gimmick, IMO.

The worse part is that it makes no sense to waste effort automating it even: why would you go to all the trouble to establish a logistic distribution of titanium plates (for example) throughout your base if only just a couple of hours later you will have to change everything again?

The best approach is atm is: make a temporary build... create the plates and take them manually to the place that create the the T4 machines, create a batch of the machines to be able to create the sheets, and then use them to automate the proper methods... which feels anti-Factorio to me (but I'm biased here, I personally hate manual feeding and hand crafting stuff.)

Sorry for the rant, it's just I feel the mod was already almost perfect before, this make it a bit worse IMO, for no reason I can understand.

Best regards.

[LovelySanta]

I did look into this for the example of Titanium. I assume you have a T2 ore setup 'done', so you have all the T2 materials to make the T2 buildings. With T2 materials done, you can start researching chemical science pack (aka blue science).

From there on out, you unlock T3 ore by researching Chemical refining and you can start sorting saphirite or crotinium crystals. The lower tiered ores you can substitute to reduce the amount of chunk and crushed ore sorting is required. The newly required ores (eg titanium) was the goal here.

With blue science unlocked, you can also research metallurgy 3, unlocking the buildings that require the T2 materials. These buildings you can use to create titanium plates after unlocking the first tier of smelting and casting.

So at this point, there is no direct requirement on titanium to create titanium.

I'm currently finding that I don't like the machine restricted recipes introduced last patch. They may seem to make sense balance wise at first, but the change leads to bad gameplay and wasting time rebuilding stuff that you shouldn't need to.

Here's the situation I am at the moment, just finished implementing T3 ore sorting, got a lot of cobalt and titanium ore and I'm ready to implement the processes needed in order to be able to create the T4 machines for the first time. At the moment, I only have access to T3 machines (the ones that require aluminium/invar.)

So I need to create a trashy build that will only produce cobalt/titanium ingots the bad way for about a couple of hours to be able to create the machines so I'm able to immediately destroy that and upgrade it to the processed recipes... that feels artificial/padding, and wasting time.

That is the philosophy with angels, you don't unlock the better recipes straight away. How this is set up with refining/smelting is quite easy: you have to make 1 fixed build for your refining and casting, and only have to substitute the correct building tiers (tip: use upgrade planner) or prepend an additional step for the chemical furnace).

But that's not the worse part, if it was only that it would be kinda understandable and just a minor nuisance at most. The worse part is that not only I have to waste time creating those intermediate builds creating the ingots, but I also have to create all the casting infrastructure using "plates" first... and all the logistics involved with distributing that to the places where they need to be used to create those T4 machines, only for a couple of hours at most, and later have to destroy all and replace it with sheets because the basic water cooled sheet recipes requires T4 strand casting machines, for no gameplay reason I can discern.

It is perfectly possible to remain at this early 'wasteful' step, there is no rush in needing to upgrade to higher tiers of smelting straight away... If you use robots, I understand plates are wasteful to transport, hence why industries provide cargo robots that can carry a stack at once. We suggest using trains instead tho...

I already have all the recipes researched and unlocked and would have access to them if only the machines weren't restricted and I have countless of other sheet recipes that are being created with those same old machines. I'd understand it more if only the coolant-based recipes were restricted to T4 machines, because that's an upgrade and restricting those wouldn't bar you of having access to the sheets using the basic recipe.

I think this is more the common issue with angels where your research is far ahead compared to what you have build and access to at the time... This is somewhat gated behind each research tier, but once you have a research tier unlocked, it is quite easy to research everything immediately...

I.e. it's one thing to require upgrades to new machines for better methods for processing ore or similar. but a basic item like the sheets should be accessible with the previously accessible machines too IMO. The logistics involved in distributing those products throughout the base is what makes it important to be able to go directly to sheets instead of having to go through an unneeded step in the middle.

But the basic problem here is the time span in which you have to build something only to have to tear it apart again a few moments later... it just makes no sense to me. If that time time were in the order of tens of hours or so, it would make more sense to me, but... you already have access to everything needed, so it's just a gimmick, IMO.

The worse part is that it makes no sense to waste effort automating it even: why would you go to all the trouble to establish a logistic distribution of titanium plates (for example) throughout your base if only just a couple of hours later you will have to change everything again?

The best approach is atm is: make a temporary build... create the plates and take them manually to the place that create the the T4 machines, create a batch of the machines to be able to create the sheets, and then use them to automate the proper methods... which feels anti-Factorio to me (but I'm biased here, I personally hate manual feeding and hand crafting stuff.)

There are 2 options, yes, create a temporary build and go for the better build directly, or stay with the lower tier build until you are way past it, have all the machines automated and are ready to do a more general rework of the smelting infrastructure... Don't focus too much on smelting alone, angels mod is far bigger, let it run 'slow' and look at bio or petrochem in the meantime...

Currently this seems still in line with the vision angel has... We are looking at reducing the amount of 'blocking' points (for example #903).

[leandor]

Fail enough! I see your point, but it still feels wrong to me. And I'm specifically talking about locking creation of sheets/coils behind a machine upgrade while, that happens almost immediately upon creating the corresponding plates.

Still, even if the further upgrades (like ore processing and such) are secondary as you said and there's no need to implement them, you just feel pressured to do them quickly for those specific mats, because at first they are so hard to produce due to the low amounts you can make with the base ore sorting, and the large amount of byproducts you create while doing so. But that pressure ends when you can create hybrid catalyst and produce the machines for making the direct ores, which is also something that you can immediately do after unlocking titanium/cobalt, because there's no extra process needed to unlock it... again, just a machine upgrade and combining metal and crystal catalysts to make the hybrid.

I already did the temporary thing and transitioned to sheets now, so it's behind me at this point. All other upgrades behind that one, are secondary and can wait, I agree with that.

Thank you for taking your time to respond with great detail! Best wishes.