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BFO-ontology / BFO-2020

A repository for BFO 2020 artifacts specified in ISO 21838-2:2020
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Processes should not depend on material entities participating #39

Open nklsbckmnn opened 1 year ago

nklsbckmnn commented 1 year ago

As Ludger Jansen convincingly argues in his "Gruppen und Institutionen“, social institutions like corporations can be immaterial independent continuants (pp. 160 f.). In my opinion, we need to allow those entities to participate in processes by themselves.

https://github.com/OBOFoundry/COB/issues/40#issuecomment-1229195036

phismith commented 1 year ago

Can you give a couple of examples?

From: eliasweatherfield @.> Sent: Saturday, August 27, 2022 10:02 AM To: BFO-ontology/BFO-2020 @.> Cc: Subscribed @.***> Subject: [BFO-ontology/BFO-2020] Processes should not depend on material entities (Issue #39)

As Ludger Jansen convincingly argues in his "Gruppen und Institutionen", there can be immaterial social institutions and corporations can sometimes be immaterial, too (pp. 160 f.). In my opinion, we need to allow those entities to participate in processes by themselves.

OBOFoundry/COB#40 (comment)https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2FOBOFoundry%2FCOB%2Fissues%2F40%23issuecomment-1229195036&data=05%7C01%7Cphismith%40buffalo.edu%7C3f57d85996a349911d6e08da8834b4be%7C96464a8af8ed40b199e25f6b50a20250%7C0%7C0%7C637972057189551246%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=zGqsAC7izFqKIT6nO6YZt2aYV3elmDkhkrMVFMimlKo%3D&reserved=0

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nklsbckmnn commented 1 year ago

Thanks for the reply... I'll try for corporations...

Cases where participants might all be immaterial social institutions:

Cases where there could be time-triggered (legal) rules (established by prior acts) that determine the time of processes:

wdduncan commented 1 year ago

@eliasweatherfield some of this discussed in #38 This FOL axiom only requires that a process has a participant, not that the participant is a material entity.

In the OWL version, the range of has participant at all/some time is defined as:

'specifically dependent continuant' or 'generically dependent continuant' or ('independent continuant'
 and (not ('spatial region')))

So, as it stands, immaterial entities can participate in processes.

alanruttenberg commented 1 year ago

I'm having trouble understanding most of these cases.

What is an immaterial social institution?

In the case of time triggers, it seems to me that nothing at all necessarily happens when the time of the trigger happens. Something happens when an attempt to do something that is no longer valid, or an inquiry as to validity is made, both such processes involving material entities. The determination that time has passed the trigger time, at the time of the attempt or inquiry would typically be by reference to some document.

Formally, the cases of BFO:immaterial entities that can participate are when a site or a boundary participates. While SDCs and GDCs are immaterial in a colloquial sense, they are dependent continuants in BFO and, as has been noted, when a dependent entity participates so does the bearer.

Alan

Alan

On Sat, Aug 27, 2022 at 12:15 PM eliasweatherfield @.***> wrote:

Thanks for the reply... I'll try for corporations...

  • change/increase/decrease/history of income/total assets/operating cash flow/valuation/number of employees
  • seed fundraising phase (stasis?)

Cases where participants might all be immaterial social institutions:

  • performance of duty (if obligor and obligee are both immaterial and juridical persons)
  • fundraising round (if investors are immaterial)
  • dissolution (if owners are immaterial)

Cases where there could be time-triggered (legal) rules (established by prior acts) that determine the time of processes:

  • time-triggered change of classification of corporation (e. g. non-profit to profit)/legal place of business
  • time-triggered gain/loss of duty/obligor role
  • time-triggered dissolution

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nklsbckmnn commented 1 year ago

What is an immaterial social institution?

It's complicated. A social institution is an entity that is dependent on at least one social act. In the case of formal institutions there is information (a deontic structure, e. g. documents) that influence the social acts. (In Epstein's terminology: anchoring.)

An immaterial social institution is a social institution that is not dependent on material constituents for grounding (again, Epstein's terminology). So e. g. a corporation that does not have members, buildings or anything that could be a material constituent is immaterial. It exists in time, but not in space, there is no mass or energy. It can gain and lose SDCs and GDCs over time so it's an IC.

In the case of time triggers, it seems to me that nothing at all necessarily happens when the time of the trigger happens.

At least in the CCO, (instantaneous?) Gains/Losses/Changes of SDC/GDC can be represented as processes.

The determination that time has passed the trigger time, at the time of the attempt or inquiry would typically be by reference to some document.

If there is a legal rule that says that at time t, immaterial independent continuant x will lose immaterial quality q and the loss of the quality can be represented as process p then by law, p exists at t and only x and q need to participate. The legal rule (ICE or GDC) might be about the process, but does not need to participate in it.

x, q and p of course depend on material entities (bearers of information, social acts) for anchoring. But I don't think we want to have those entities participating in or getting mixed up in p. Requiring anchoring entities to participate would in the extreme lead to something like this: Any process that a dollar bill participates in would have to have everyone engaging in social acts anchoring dollar bills and any documents regulating (anchoring) dollar bills as participants.

nklsbckmnn commented 1 year ago

Please note I substantially edited my original reply.

phismith commented 1 year ago

Can you give me the definition of 'institution' you are using here? And examples of institutions that are not social? BS

From: eliasweatherfield @.> Sent: Sunday, August 28, 2022 2:43 AM To: BFO-ontology/BFO-2020 @.> Cc: Barry Smith @.>; Comment @.> Subject: Re: [BFO-ontology/BFO-2020] Processes should not depend on material entities (Issue #39)

What is an immaterial social institution?

It's complicated. A social institution is an entity that is dependent on at least one social act. (In Epstein's terminology: anchoring.)

An immaterial social institution is a social institution that is not dependent on material constituents for grounding (again, Epstein's terminology).

In the case of time triggers, it seems to me that nothing at all necessarily happens when the time of the trigger happens.

At least in the CCO, (instantaneous?) Gains/Losses/Changes of SDC/GDC can be represented as processes.

The determination that time has passed the trigger time, at the time of the attempt or inquiry would typically be by reference to some document.

If there is a legal rule that says that at time t, immaterial independent continuant x will lose immaterial quality q and the loss of the quality can be represented as process p then that at time t, by law p exists at t and only x and q need to participate. The legal rule (ICE or GDP) might be about the process, but does not participate in it.

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nklsbckmnn commented 1 year ago

I use institution as defined by Ludger Jansen in his "Gruppen und Institutionen".

See also here: http://ceur-ws.org/Vol-2518/paper-SOLEE2.pdf

There are just institutions, no non-social institutions. Institution is a defined class and can contain all kinds of entities.

phismith commented 1 year ago

Then you should not use "social institutions" It seems clear to me that all the examples you give depend inter multa alia on the planet Earth, certain people, things like clocks, etc. BS

From: eliasweatherfield @.> Sent: Monday, August 29, 2022 10:44 AM To: BFO-ontology/BFO-2020 @.> Cc: Barry Smith @.>; Comment @.> Subject: Re: [BFO-ontology/BFO-2020] Processes should not depend on material entities (Issue #39)

I use institution as defined by Ludger Jansen in his "Gruppen und Institutionen".

See also here: http://ceur-ws.org/Vol-2518/paper-SOLEE2.pdfhttps://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fceur-ws.org%2FVol-2518%2Fpaper-SOLEE2.pdf&data=05%7C01%7Cphismith%40buffalo.edu%7Cc81ab85cad224fabdead08da89ccf61c%7C96464a8af8ed40b199e25f6b50a20250%7C0%7C0%7C637973812194983246%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=BJNwrhutNpDVWs3pVuwhT5IBSE%2FC4j2scpqyrjX0C2Y%3D&reserved=0

There are just institutions, no non-social institutions. Institution is a defined class and can contain all kinds of entities.

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nklsbckmnn commented 1 year ago

I agree. But see my argument above.

If there is a legal rule that says that at time t, immaterial independent continuant x will lose immaterial quality q and the loss of the quality can be represented as process p then by law, p exists at t and only x and q need to participate. The legal rule (ICE or GDC) might be about the process, but does not need to participate in it.

x, q and p of course depend on material entities (bearers of information, social acts) for anchoring. But I don't think we want to have those entities participating in or getting mixed up in p. Requiring anchoring entities to participate would in the extreme lead to something like this: Any process that a dollar bill participates in would have to have everyone engaging in social acts anchoring dollar bills and any documents regulating (anchoring) dollar bills as participants.