Closed WeirdPhrog closed 3 years ago
Very true
The key thing I would highlight is that all the free service rendered by the small farmers throughout the testnet phase over an year got unrewarded. Because they are "small farmers". I believe this may not be the thing that @Bramcohen really wanted.
Anyone who has a video card can now mine ether. Bitcoin can only be mined by large players. But bitcoin has been around for a long time. Small players cannot participate in this new cryptocurrency right away. Therefore, most of the mining will be in China. Then there will be a 51% effect and the death of cryptocurrency. I think this will soon befall Bitcoin too. Apparently, only Ethereum will remain. How did the creators of this cryptocurrency fail to understand this? Or is this all this game to boost hard drive sales?
You could give at least a few pieces of coins to small farmers, not just an increasing reward time.
I plotted 15 plots yesterday and my time remaining has gone from a month too two months now. There's no way to catch up at this rate
It's growing way too fast. Just see how much the coin is worth when it comes to market.
Gonna laugh my ass off if it's pennies lol. That's when you'll see the network shrink a bit I think.
CHIA has become pay to win, not miner's coin.
There is a fundamental misunderstanding about how farming in chia actually works. Your reward is directly proportional to the percentage of netspace you own. There are no economies of scale at play here. If you Mine bitcoin by yourself with a single GPU you will likely never win a single block. However with Chia you will eventually win even if it takes a long time. I get that people are frustrated about the growth of the netspace and their own chances diminishing. But no one owes you a thing in a decentralised system. Keep plotting with what you have, dont make huge investments and you will eventually win some chia.
If that is not what you want, I understand and you may be better off buying chia once the transactions go live today. This is not a get-rich-quick scheme. This is a new way of decentralising transacitions and smart contracts, if you dont want to be a part of that, thats fine. The price of chia will take a while to increase, you are not missing out just because you dont have 1000 chia from the start.
I plotted 12, the farmer estimated a year to win
There is a fundamental misunderstanding about how farming in chia actually works. Your reward is directly proportional to the percentage of netspace you own. There are no economies of scale at play here. If you Mine bitcoin by yourself with a single GPU you will likely never win a single block. However with Chia you will eventually win even if it takes a long time. I get that people are frustrated about the growth of the netspace and their own chances diminishing. But no one owes you a thing in a decentralised system. Keep plotting with what you have, dont make huge investments and you will eventually win some chia.
If that is not what you want, I understand and you may be better off buying chia once the transactions go live today. This is not a get-rich-quick scheme. This is a new way of decentralising transacitions and smart contracts, if you dont want to be a part of that, thats fine. The price of chia will take a while to increase, you are not missing out just because you dont have 1000 chia from the start.
I would rather say that what you mention is a fundamental misunderstanding of how Chia works. For instance, this statement is absolutely wrong "Your reward is directly proportional to the percentage of netspace you own." In elections and politicals systems, there are two ways to distribute votes: proportional and majoritarian. In case of proportional system, the distribution of seats in parliament is essentially the share of votes obtained by the party. If we translate this to Chia, your reward for each Chia dropped to farmers would be equal to your share of the netspace multiplied by 1 Chia. In majoritarian systems the winner takes it all, so this is actually opposite to the statement you mention. This is not even true for a long term.If you contribute now 50tb of disk space, chances are you'll not get rewarded this week. The next week your chances are even lower and the longer you contribute, the smaller are your chances to get rewarded, so there's high probability that contributing this 50tb over next ten years would return 0. How that is "proportional"?
There is a fundamental misunderstanding about how farming in chia actually works. Your reward is directly proportional to the percentage of netspace you own. There are no economies of scale at play here. If you Mine bitcoin by yourself with a single GPU you will likely never win a single block. However with Chia you will eventually win even if it takes a long time. I get that people are frustrated about the growth of the netspace and their own chances diminishing. But no one owes you a thing in a decentralised system. Keep plotting with what you have, dont make huge investments and you will eventually win some chia. If that is not what you want, I understand and you may be better off buying chia once the transactions go live today. This is not a get-rich-quick scheme. This is a new way of decentralising transacitions and smart contracts, if you dont want to be a part of that, thats fine. The price of chia will take a while to increase, you are not missing out just because you dont have 1000 chia from the start.
I would rather say that what you mention is a fundamental misunderstanding of how Chia works. For instance, this statement is absolutely wrong "Your reward is directly proportional to the percentage of netspace you own." In elections and politicals systems, there are two ways to distribute votes: proportional and majoritarian. In case of proportional system, the distribution of seats in parliament is essentially the share of votes obtained by the party. If we translate this to Chia, your reward for each Chia dropped to farmers would be equal to your share of the netspace multiplied by 1 Chia. In majoritarian systems the winner takes it all, so this is actually opposite to the statement you mention. This is not even true for a long term.If you contribute now 50tb of disk space, chances are you'll not get rewarded this week. The next week your chances are even lower and the longer you contribute, the smaller are your chances to get rewarded, so there's high probability that contributing this 50tb over next ten years would return 0. How that is "proportional"?
Your example is not comparable to the Chia network, as the number of representatives in parliament doesn't grow day by day as the network does. Every hour you have a percentage chance to win Chia based on the proportion of the network size at that time that your storage represents. If you contribute 1 plot to the network, your chances to win in any given hour will decrease as the network size grows - but will never reach zero. Your assertion that "there's high probability that contributing this 50tb over next ten years would return 0" assumes a great deal that is not established as we must first answer these questions... How large will the network grow before it stabilizes? At what value will Chia coins stabilize?
The point I would make is - "If you are farming with storage space you weren't using then is there a downside?"...
There are a lot of people out there who spend money on lotteries; for example Powerball the odds of winning are 1 in 292,201,338 so if a person played every day for their adult life, they would have a 0.0087% chance of winning the jackpot and that costs $2 every time you play or approximately $51,135 over that lifetime...
Bottom line, the top players that can afford hundreds of thousands of dollars in drives and networking equipment, are the ones that will get 99% of the coins. Feel free to look up the stats for yourself.
And at the rate it's going, this will never become something that's worth farming. If you didn't get into it when it was fresh, you're out of luck. The big players own the space. No new farmer is going to be able to catch up to the bigger guys.
Your best bet is to go find some other coin to mine. Or, go get a job. You'll make more money, and faster.
Officials pools coming... but they have to make possible use old plots on the pools. There is a lot of work done and has to be profitable too. Also i think you have to be able to change between the officials pools or going alone when you want, so has to be any code access to the pools without creating new plots
"they have to make possible use old plots on the pools."
Since it is a key based system, this is impossible for current plots. Hopefully they will develop a plot that can be adaptable in the future.
And , yea I would have preferred Chia Blockchain to have a more diversified and organic start before it became so centralized (in regard to the major space owners).
if you're using only free space to support chia, you wont get reward at all at this point 3.14 EiB in netspace now. unless you create 25 plots a day to catch up (consume 50 tbw/day) and cost 5TB/day storage (assume 2.5TB farming and 2.5TB plots backup) at this point. there is no point. Since a harddisk is more than $20/TB now. Unless, applied limit to plots or required a license to farm lol ...
This is a "told you so" moment for so many people. No, Chia is NOT practical for most people anymore, and yes, normal people CAN find uses for SSDs with more than 80 TBW. I take no pride in saying that I predicted that Chia would become dead to most people, but it was obvious even at launch of trading a week ago, and many people who should have known better are learning the hard way that we were right. This is another way for the rich to get richer. I have no issue with that personally, but let's not kid ourselves about what is happening here. I'm going to fill up my ten TB of free space with Chia plots and see if I get lucky but I have no expectation of anything coming from it. I expect more from my single GTX 1070 mining Ethereum, at least that should make me a few bucks a month since I'm in a pool. The more time goes on the more apparent the inherent flaws are in Chia. Usually crypto isn't a pure gambling game, but let's face it, that's exactly what Chia is, and it needs to be redesigned if the creators actually stand by the original stated intent of Chia. The casino style of Chia has to go if it has any chance at being decentralized. We will see what happens when pooling is introduced, for a time that may actually make Chia practical again, but eventually it will outgrow the practicality and become a thing only viable for private and public datacenters again.
How can Chia farming program decentralised in order to increase the security level, and how to evenly to award farmers, that is the question to Chia team. :) but Chia is now a capitalism game, who own more or who contribute more then control Chia.
Allow to join pool or not allow pool, there is pros and cons too. enjoy :)
Unless my 4TB of K32 plots wins something, at the end of the year, I'm done with chia. Uninstall the GUI, delete the plots, and user my rig to mine a crypto that actually HAS a consistent payout, even if it's less than chia's value.
In all honesty though, I have zero faith that Chia will improve to the point that it's worth getting into as a farmer. It's been capitalized and ruined in just a couple weeks.
On Sun, May 9, 2021, 6:51 AM s12321 @.***> wrote:
How can Chia farming program decentralised in order to increase the security level, and how to evenly to award farmers, that is the question to Chia team. :) but Chia is now a capitalism game, who own more or who contribute more then control Chia.
Allow to join pool or not allow pool, there is pros and cons too. enjoy :)
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Mh reading this... damn I thought of going in with 32TB, like buy 2 harddiscs for around 550$. Theoretically a pool could still work or not? Like loggin in, sign up for pool mining, and if your plot was rewarded you share it with everyone and the other way around? Also wonder if there is any estimation on a price for chia coins?
Process are strong $500 right now. But I expect that will fall pretty soon
On Sun, May 9, 2021, 2:27 PM rtom098 @.***> wrote:
Mh reading this... damn I thought of going in with 32TB, like buy 2 harddiscs for around 550$. Theoretically a pool could still work or not? Like loggin in, sign up for pool mining, and if your plot was rewarded you share it with everyone and the other way around? Also wonder if there is any estimation on a price for chia coins?
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Well, I guess that situation is clear. For example if someone bought hardware for 1k $ an use it for chia network, and didn't get this 1k $ for example in 1 year, what's the point to spend time for supporting this technology? Without corresponding reward, even for 1TB of space, anyone will not do that. So we will have big whales in data centers with tons of TB... Erm... It's not ECO, and probably it's not decentrenalized, and probably it's even worse than now. Now we have GPU electricity spending. In the future we will have GPU and HDD electricity spending :)
Here's what I don't understand - If you pass the filter, and you also have a proof of space, you also have to have the most farm space of anyone else who also had the proof? This is quoted from the wiki:
For reasons that aren't super simple to intuit, the only thing each plot is competing on is to have the best proof of space and thus the chances of getting a reward depend on total size of plots on the farm - even with the plot filter in place.
So how does someone with small amounts of TB plots even have a chance? This is even worse than a lottery. Not only do you have to have the winning numbers, you also have to beat up and take the numbers from anyone else who might have them.
They don't. What it SHOULD be, is that once all eligible plots are found, the winner is picked randomly, rather than being based on who has more plots.
On Sun, May 9, 2021, 8:20 PM mhoney @.***> wrote:
Here's what I don't understand - If you pass the filter, and you also have a proof of space, you also have to have the most farm space of anyone else who also had the proof? This is quoted from the wiki:
For reasons that aren't super simple to intuit, the only thing each plot is competing on is to have the best proof of space and thus the chances of getting a reward depend on total size of plots on the farm - even with the plot filter in place.
So how does someone with small amounts of TB plots even have a chance?
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am i the only one seeing a decrease in netspace in the last 24h? Around 10% of netspace have disappeared? Did I miss something?
Nope, it's actually going down. BUT, the TTW is still essentially the same. Not sure what happened, but at least it's headed in the right direction.
On Sun, May 9, 2021, 10:56 PM SackofFluor @.***> wrote:
am i the only one seeing a decrease in netspace in the last 24h? Around 10% of netspace have disappeared? Did I miss something?
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Well for me the TTW did already drop by 20%, so I was wondering if I just missed some major thing...
I think I will have to start verifying plots just to be sure that they are at least somehow alright
I think that the reason the TTW has gone down by 20% is twofold...
It does seem to keep going down pretty quickly though...
It would be great if there was a new protocol version that will pay smaller ammount but more often.
Let's say 3200 x 0.01 chia per 10 minutes instead of 32chia per 10 minutes.
@StavrosD This! Then you wouldnt need a pool as a small farmer...
https://i.imgur.com/mMKLopr.png
17 Years? That's a tiny bit long
You need a lot more plots. One plot isn't going to cut it.
On Mon, May 10, 2021, 9:25 AM AkumaNoTsubasa @.***> wrote:
https://i.imgur.com/mMKLopr.png
17 Years? That's a tiny bit long
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You need a lot more plots. One plot isn't going to cut it. … On Mon, May 10, 2021, 9:25 AM AkumaNoTsubasa @.***> wrote: https://i.imgur.com/mMKLopr.png 17 Years? That's a tiny bit long — You are receiving this because you commented. Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub <#3509 (comment)>, or unsubscribe https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AJXLIJZRVHWI4N54RTWACULTM7NEDANCNFSM44AMETVQ .
might be a stupid question but I couldn't find anything with my wording on google.
The SSD for plotting is only to CREATE the plots, so when I am done plotting I can add more? I got a 1TB, so I can do 3 plots. Or is the space on the SSD perma blocked by these plots?
I would not use an SSD to create the plots. The amount of data written for a single plot is close to 1.8TB. SSD's have a limited write-life cycle, and will very quickly wear out that way. Do all your plotting on a standard mechanical HDD. Then move the completed plot over to an SSD (for farming).
You can add as many plots as you can fit. You can do a lot more than 3 plots on a 1TB. You can fit 9 plots at K32 (~104GB each) on a 1TB partition. Just stick with K32 for now. Won't need anything larger for years.
On Mon, May 10, 2021 at 10:09 AM AkumaNoTsubasa @.***> wrote:
You need a lot more plots. One plot isn't going to cut it. … <#m-7224707607204917396> On Mon, May 10, 2021, 9:25 AM AkumaNoTsubasa @.***> wrote: https://i.imgur.com/mMKLopr.png 17 Years? That's a tiny bit long — You are receiving this because you commented. Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub <#3509 (comment) https://github.com/Chia-Network/chia-blockchain/issues/3509#issuecomment-836696000>, or unsubscribe https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AJXLIJZRVHWI4N54RTWACULTM7NEDANCNFSM44AMETVQ .
might be a stupid question but I couldn't find anything with my wording on google.
The SSD for plotting is only to CREATE the plots, so when I am done plotting I can add more? I got a 1TB, so I can do 3 plots. Or is the space on the SSD perma blocked by these plots?
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??? But the UI and all tutorials say the SSD is needed for plotting and the final plots should just be parked on a large normal HDD, you are now saying the exact opposite?
??? But the UI and all tutorials say the SSD is needed for plotting and the final plots should just be parked on a large normal HDD, you are now saying the exact opposite?
He didn't say you must. He said it will wear an SSD out fast. The amount of read/writes to create one plot is demanding
And SSD drive only has a life of X amount of writes before general failure.
He's advising I think to run on a standard drive.
I plot using an nvme and a normal usb 3deive and there's not much difference in time really.
Yes, I'm saying the opposite. You'll kill a solid state drive very quickly if you plot on it. I have it set to that I plot the temporary files on a mechanical hard drive (SATA 3 internal, not through USB), and move the final plot over to my 1TB SSD (NVMe). Honestly, the time difference isn't that much, so in order to allow your hardware to last longer (and in turn spend less money), set it up like I did.
On Mon, May 10, 2021 at 10:31 AM handsomedude @.***> wrote:
??? But the UI and all tutorials say the SSD is needed for plotting and the final plots should just be parked on a large normal HDD, you are now saying the exact opposite?
He didn't say you must. He said it will wear an SSD out fast. The amount of read/writes to create one plot is demanding
And SSD drive only has a life of X amount of writes before general failure.
He's advising I think to run on a standard drive.
I plot using an nvme and a normal usb 3deive and there's not much difference in time really.
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Ah okay. Yeah if I am new to something I better ask, to understand. Thanks!
Yes, I'm saying the opposite. You'll kill a solid state drive very quickly if you plot on it. I have it set to that I plot the temporary files on a mechanical hard drive (SATA 3 internal, not through USB), and move the final plot over to my 1TB SSD (NVMe). Honestly, the time difference isn't that much, so in order to allow your hardware to last longer (and in turn spend less money), set it up like I did. … On Mon, May 10, 2021 at 10:31 AM handsomedude @.***> wrote: ??? But the UI and all tutorials say the SSD is needed for plotting and the final plots should just be parked on a large normal HDD, you are now saying the exact opposite? He didn't say you must. He said it will wear an SSD out fast. The amount of read/writes to create one plot is demanding And SSD drive only has a life of X amount of writes before general failure. He's advising I think to run on a standard drive. I plot using an nvme and a normal usb 3deive and there's not much difference in time really. — You are receiving this because you commented. Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub <#3509 (comment)>, or unsubscribe https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AJXLIJ24BW5IVSV4YO2DLODTM7U4XANCNFSM44AMETVQ .
What is the rationale for moving the completed plots to SSD? Why not just leave them in a mechanical drive? The farming speed seems not to be dependent on the speed of the storage drive.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but at the final step, the person whose machine gives the correct answer first, gets the win. So faster data table lookup is beneficial (read speed).
On Mon, May 10, 2021, 10:57 AM actuaryck @.***> wrote:
Yes, I'm saying the opposite. You'll kill a solid state drive very quickly if you plot on it. I have it set to that I plot the temporary files on a mechanical hard drive (SATA 3 internal, not through USB), and move the final plot over to my 1TB SSD (NVMe). Honestly, the time difference isn't that much, so in order to allow your hardware to last longer (and in turn spend less money), set it up like I did. … <#m-869550503245450812> On Mon, May 10, 2021 at 10:31 AM handsomedude @.***> wrote: ??? But the UI and all tutorials say the SSD is needed for plotting and the final plots should just be parked on a large normal HDD, you are now saying the exact opposite? He didn't say you must. He said it will wear an SSD out fast. The amount of read/writes to create one plot is demanding And SSD drive only has a life of X amount of writes before general failure. He's advising I think to run on a standard drive. I plot using an nvme and a normal usb 3deive and there's not much difference in time really. — You are receiving this because you commented. Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub <#3509 (comment) https://github.com/Chia-Network/chia-blockchain/issues/3509#issuecomment-836772444>, or unsubscribe https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AJXLIJ24BW5IVSV4YO2DLODTM7U4XANCNFSM44AMETVQ .
What is the rationale for moving the completed plots to SSD? Why not just leave them in a mechanical drive? The farming speed seems not to be dependent on the speed of the storage drive.
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WE all forgot one thing in this ENTIRE thread. We will soon have pools. ITs a way for small miners to pool their storage so they get a fraction of what they contributed to the pool. if a pool is 1 TiB(obviously hypothetical) and somebody with 100 Gib 'wins' they only get 1/10 of the winnings but then again if anybody 'wins', they receive that. ITs a win win for small miners. Big miners who win almost every single day can still solo mine so they get the entire reward. Farming this crypto still makes sense
Yes, I'm saying the opposite. You'll kill a solid state drive very quickly if you plot on it. I have it set to that I plot the temporary files on a mechanical hard drive (SATA 3 internal, not through USB), and move the final plot over to my 1TB SSD (NVMe). Honestly, the time difference isn't that much, so in order to allow your hardware to last longer (and in turn spend less money), set it up like I did. … On Mon, May 10, 2021 at 10:31 AM handsomedude @.***> wrote: ??? But the UI and all tutorials say the SSD is needed for plotting and the final plots should just be parked on a large normal HDD, you are now saying the exact opposite? He didn't say you must. He said it will wear an SSD out fast. The amount of read/writes to create one plot is demanding And SSD drive only has a life of X amount of writes before general failure. He's advising I think to run on a standard drive. I plot using an nvme and a normal usb 3deive and there's not much difference in time really. — You are receiving this because you commented. Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub <#3509 (comment)>, or unsubscribe https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AJXLIJ24BW5IVSV4YO2DLODTM7U4XANCNFSM44AMETVQ .
What is the rationale for moving the completed plots to SSD? Why not just leave them in a mechanical drive? The farming speed seems not to be dependent on the speed of the storage drive.
Exactly. Why would you need to buy a NVMe ssd. Save even more money and get bigger plots. Only if you only have like1 TiB of space can you plot with a mechanical drive. Otherwise its too slow
I had hope this project is for everyone but even with 100 plots its hard to get something. Network space is going down because ppl are giving up. IMHO without official pools ASAP this project will be usefull only for big boys, but its possible sooner or later it will be dead... Shame for this, i think ppl didnt expected so high price, but what is price if its almost impossible to win anything without huge datacentre.
At the mo, it's 220 plots needed for 28 days lol
At the mo, it's 220 plots needed for 28 days lol
thats true, but for many people its much better to get 20 $ per day mining with some graphic cards.. There You are rewarded for even "small power" everyday. I believe right now rewarded are people which are supporting this project for longer time. At all, Chia was supposed to be for everyone.. even for ppl with smaller amount of TB (they also bring huge netspace). I don't want to repeat myself, but pooling wil bring alot for those people and for this project. We have to wait patiently.
I plotted 15 plots yesterday and my time remaining has gone from a month too two months now. There's no way to catch up at this rate
It's growing way too fast. Just see how much the coin is worth when it comes to market.
Gonna laugh my ass off if it's pennies lol. That's when you'll see the network shrink a bit I think.
This aged well.
What i fail to understand is why do people say "the more storage you have the more chance you get"... If one person had 10tb and another had 100tb and both doing say 10 plots per day. Why would the 100tb have a better chance? Surely if the 10tb guy was farming and deleting his 10tb drives regularly then they each would be plotting the same volume of plots (lottery cards) and so the odds the same?
In other words. Lets say a guy had a HUGE physical wallet. He goes into a shop and buys 100 lottery tickets, takes them all home and works through each to see if any win... Then a chap with a far smaller waller that can only fit 10 tickets in per time yet he buys 10, goes home, checks for a win then returns to the shop for 10 more. As long as he visits the shop 10 times he has the same chance as big wallet man...
Because the lottery ticket is the actual Plot on the hard-drive...
So the more lottery tickets you have, the higher are your chances.... The plotting itself is just "filling out the lottery ticket with your numbers".
If you have 100TB worth of tickets your chances are much higher then just having 10TB worth of tickets...
Sorry i havent plotted/farmed so really dont know. So. Hold on.. the entire pool of storage is your ticket? I assume you raid all of your drives that make up the single farming pool to make one single D: drive or what not.. does the chia software auto start to farm once this pool is full??
You dont need the pool to be FULL. You have a ticket to the lottery for every 101gb of plot u have and u keep on your HARD DRIVES. So having more space gives u more chances. U don
t need to have them raided cause u can add all your drives to the farm (for example having 2 hard drives full of plots, u can just both drives to the farm (D: and E:) and not having to raid them to have a big D: ) Hope that this would make things a little easy to be understood. And yea, having more is better ATM to increase your chances to get a block. But with implementing of the pools, there will be lower rewards for more people(the block reward is divided to all of the users that contribute to the pool based on the amount of the space contributed)
The difficulty has become so high that it no longer makes sense to farm this crypt. And the difficulty continues to grow at an unimaginable rate. The farming of this crypt is dead.