[Suggestion]Chlorine for late/end game

[0lafe]

Which modpack version are you using?

2.0.3 #

What do you suggest instead/what changes do you propose?

With no more pams salt, and chlorine coming from ghast tiers, end game is going to have some issues. I personally use close to 16B of chlorine per second, but getting 16 ghast tiers a second has its problems. Large scale mobfarms kind of mess up with the teleporting and web placing mobs.

My idea is a fusion recipe for chlorine would be Oxygen with Hydrogen. It sorta works out chemically. Both are pretty easy to get, but it would still make chlorine harder to get than it is right now. Maybe have it take some mk1 eu/t value, and maybe at 16000L hydrogen and Oxygen to make 32000L Chlorine and take 8 seconds. It would be pretty close to the cost of electrolyzing salt right now, but would need a fusion reactor, and a decent amount of power. Not to mention the cost of 16B of oxygen and hydrogen. It's still more work that what we have now, but it's better suited for LuV+ than ghast tears are.

Maybe something like 8192eu/t for the recipe, and some starting EU that will put it in the MK1 category

PS

pretty sure @Cinobi has an issue with it too, and Pie might, couldnt really tell his opinion from earlier.

I use chlorine for silicone rubber, which I use for wetware circuits, and sometimes cables. I also use it for epoxy which I use for circuits as well as carbon mesh. I use it for titaniumtetrachloride, which I use for PTFE, polyethylene and glue, which I use for circuits, machines, and duct tape. I use it for HCl which I use for iron3chloride which I use for circuits. I use it for HCl which I use for one of the oil things, I think epoxy but it could be silicone. I don't craft chlorine as I need it, I have it constantly running to fill buffers that then get used in AE crafting, such as epoxy boards, carbon mesh, iron3chloride, and such. That way, I don't need to wait for thousands of epoxy to be crafted so I can make one of the 32 stacks of EV machines I need to fill a PA with.

I used to use an EV PA of LV machines to make chlorine, but it was always holding everything else up, so I tried an IV one, then had to change to an LuV one. It still struggles to make chlorine, but it can sometimes almost keep up, and more often than not, makes the slowest aspect, my oil production/refining into propene.

[richardhendricks]

Looking at a couple alternatives for salt production https://github.com/GTNewHorizons/NewHorizons/issues/2854 https://github.com/GTNewHorizons/NewHorizons/issues/2842

[richardhendricks]

Salt ore in the pulverizer gives 4 crushed salt and 10% rock salt dust. Rock salt ore in the pulverizer gives 4 crushed rock salt and 10% salt dust

[noobyaran9]

Suggestion: Buff salt ore output to something like 12 or 20 crushed. Honestly, i dont think this number is wrong. RL salt ore is way more denser than this.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salt_mining

[richardhendricks]

Fulled mined out salt vein using an HV single-block miner = ~22 stacks. Would be ~88 stacks crushed with current numbers. Gives 88*1.1 = ~97 stacks of KCl or NaCL dusts, or about 3,104 buckets of chlorine

As a point of comparison, turning 8 stacks of Rutile (not that hard to get) into titaniumtetrachloride takes ~2048 buckets of chlorine.

Other mitigating factors - large ore drilling plant will give ~3x the amount of crushed ores.

[DarkShadow44]

With no more pams salt

What do you mean? You can use a water bucket with pam's harvestcrafts pot to make salt, and that you can electrolyze. It's cheap, infinite chlorine. Did I miss something here?

[Anarack]

Its being removed or being made to only make salt that can be used for food.

[codewarrior0]

As a point of comparison, turning 8 stacks of Rutile (not that hard to get) into titaniumtetrachloride takes ~2048 buckets of chlorine.

512 buckets, unless you're voiding the magnesiumchloride?

[richardhendricks]

I was going to add the ratio for recovery when used for titanium next. But, it's not only for titanium, it can also be used for plastics production, in which you get none back.

[0lafe]

Considering this is for endgame stuff, I guess I should add that I only use rutile for plastics and glue, never for titanium, and because of that never recover any chlorine. Also, we should probably be looking at ghast tier chlorine, as it's a higher tier method than salt ore, I think.

[codewarrior0]

But doesn't the tetrachloride used to process plastics like vinyl chloride actually represent a chlorine discount?

[0lafe]

Don't think so. Does ptfe or polyethylene or refined glue use any chlorine? Anyway, it's barely used. If I make 630,000 plastic sheets, I will use as much chlorine as I make in 14min

[noobyaran9]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/440359501816659970/440359513158057994/unknown.png

512 buckets, unless you're voiding the magnesiumchloride?

Magnesiumchloride? what are u talking about??

[0lafe]

You get it when you process it for titanium instead of using it for extra output. After TiCl4 I think it turns into that

[noobyaran9]

You get it when you process it for titanium instead of using it for extra output. After TiCl4 I think it turns into that

Reprocessing magnesiumchloride into chlorine is out of the question then. People do use TiCl4 for making plastics and stuffs.

[repo-alt]

When extracting titanium from rutile you get insane amounts of TiCl4, but seriously, who uses rutile for titanium after getting to the Mars...

[richardhendricks]

I'm using it now because I am out of titanium ore from my Moon trip, I have tons of bauxite, and why not, it's a legitimate use for it. I don't think "insane amounts" is correct, I think you only get 1B per rutile?

No kink-shaming, plz.

[0lafe]

This issue isn't meant to Target people using TiCl4 for titanium. The problem is at UV+ you need a lot of Cl in a way ghast tears can't provide, nor salt ore. Fusion fixes it pretty easily, but a revamp for UU would work too I guess. Or some scaling recipe like silicon boules using glowstone/vibrant/naquadah. There could be a way to make chlorine from ghast tears that needs some gating material, like awakend draconium or infinity

[repo-alt]

Richard, I have a strange feeling that you are taking my words personally, please don't, perhaps my wording is incorrect, but I'm definitely not trying to teach anyone the "only right way" or anything. I also used rutile to get some titanium, but when you have pure titanium as an ore, getting it from rutile is just not efficient. (Now, when I played on a GT5 server where there were no titanium ore - everybody was quite content with rutile processing chain, but here titanium is required in massive amounts.) As for the the TiCl4 amount, yes, you get 1 bucket per dust, but when used as a catalyst it is used not by buckets but by 100L per recipe, hence my impression that you get a lot. Sorry for the offtopic anyway.

[richardhendricks]

No worries, it's not my primary source, as I said my stacks of titanium got used up (3 titanium boilers ftw) so I was starting on lower priority sources because I already mined out two veins on the moon and didn't want to have to search for more right now.

Anyways, sounds like plastic isn't a major use for it, and if we add alternate high tier ways to get large quantities that might work for everyone.

[0lafe]

Get large quantities of what?

[Wolozo7]

I'm mildly confused by why there is a need for a both fast and infinite way to make Chlorine when none of its usages are indefinite. Maybe someone could calculate the materials required for whatever the common Lategameplayer regularly builds (a stack of EV machines was mentioned), to give a more imaginable idea of the need for Chlorine to those who haven't reached such a stage yet.

[codewarrior0]

I use chlorine for silicone rubber, which I use for wetware circuits, and sometimes cables. I also use it for epoxy which I use for circuits as well as carbon mesh. I use it for titaniumtetrachloride, which I use for PTFE, polyethylene and glue, which I use for circuits, machines, and duct tape. I use it for HCl which I use for iron3chloride which I use for circuits. I use it for HCl which I use for one of the oil things, I think epoxy but it could be silicone. I don't craft chlorine as I need it, I have it constantly running to fill buffers that then get used in AE crafting, such as epoxy boards, carbon mesh, iron3chloride, and such. That way, I don't need to wait for thousands of epoxy to be crafted so I can make one of the 32 stacks of EV machines I need to fill a PA with.

If chlorine were scarce, you'd use:

Vinyl chloride for cables instead of silicone Polyethylene for carbon fiber TiCl4 only for epoxy and vinyl chloride Sodium perchlorate for circuits whenever possible MV-line circuits (plastic board) for stacks of EV machines instead of HV-line (epoxid board) or EV-line (fiber-epoxid board)

[richardhendricks]

I don't think it's really relevant to the conversation. We can play this game all week (How do you get Sodium Persulfate and Vinyl Chloride?), but I don't think it's offering solutions.

I think the best option is a mix: (updated, so some of the conversation below is outdated.)

Low tiers

• Buff the pulverizer output from 4x to 12x for salt and rock salt ore. This is reasonable as salt is one of the most mined substances on Earth. This would work for low tiers

Mid tiers

• Add salt water as fluid to planets. Mars, etc as proposed in other ticket. Quantity would be 5x higher than current oil on some planets, with a good drilling plant should be plenty of salt/s.
• Add a distillation tower recipe for salt water - 4000L to 2 normal pile of salt every 4s at 120 EU/t. This is equal output to the current distillation recipe recipe (500L to 1 small pile), but is much faster and can be accelerated with faster hatches (4s/MV, 2s/HV, 1s/EV, etc).

High tiers

• Use 0lafe's fusion proposal above, except 16H + 32O so the numbers are right

If we still want to use the ghast tear solution, I think it should be a more magical solution rather than technical, since the tears come from a magical beast. Maybe an alchemical recipe that turns 1 tear into a quantity of salt (8? 32? Dunno what a good number is here) using terra, aqua, and ignis aspects? I think it could be automated simply enough for mid-tier players who don't want to mine salt anymore and don't need massive quantities yet.

[0lafe]

And what about the endgame solution?

[richardhendricks]

salt water at 5x oil could give you easily 2000L/t, more with a higher tier drilling plant

With HV a distillation tower gives you 1 salt/s or 1 chlorine every 2s. Since it's only 2 tall, it would be easy to have 2 or 4 to up rates. So 2 chlorine/s should be easy with an HV setup.

Is that sufficient or do you think more is needed?

[0lafe]

I don't like the use of the distillation tower because of how poorly it overclocks, nor do I like relying on something that needs chunkloading away from your base, and requires remote power transfer, as that doesn't really work at high tiers. It would need its own dedicated generator, which can't really be a fusion one. Needing to transfer power doesn't really work with fusion considering you can't really split power up very well with it. I don't see what's wrong with a fusion recipe for chlorine liquid from oxygen and hydrogen or something like that. It has all the gating of a drilling platform if not more, but it doesn't have the dumb downsides that things like drilling will always have.

[richardhendricks]

I don't understand the concern with power transfer. HV power could be easily provided with a single block turbine and supplied with the plentiful products, gas or fluid, available at tier. EV or IV power could be done with a large combustion or turbine, which should be more than enough on-site.

I am not familiar with overclocking issues on the distillation tower, can you elaborate?

Chunkloading is a thing now, is it not? Why the reluctance to do it away from your base? Is the concern other players? Mobs? I just want to understand the issue.

I don't know enough about fusion, would that allow you the rates of chlorine you need? What tier does that open up? Chlorine from fusion should be from sulfur + hydrogen or phosphorus + helium.

[0lafe]

Chunkloading is normally controlled on servers. The one I played capped it at 60 chunks total. Wasting one on a drill just because it has to be far away from your base to work, seems dumb to me. If you can get UV+ levels of salt from HV or even IV power, then that's an issue itself.

The issues I mean are that it has to overclock like a singleblock machine, but is large enough you can't have too many of them because they will drop server performance if you have too many multiblocks. If it's an MV recipe, needing IV speeds from it is a huge waste of power. If lower levels can keep up, then again, that's also a problem.

Fusion opens at the beginning of LuV I think. You need an assembly line, and possibly even wetware supercomputers if I'm remembering it right. I can't remember if those need zpm or not to make though. The problem with sulfur or phosphor is that you can't make those at the rates that would make the fusion recipe worthwhile. Using air products, or hydrogen works because of how you can make them in mass at higher tiers, but sulfur and phosphor don't work like that at all. In fact, phosphor is a huge pain to get at all, with sulfur being only slightly easier.

[noobyaran9]

I don't understand the concern with power transfer. HV power could be easily provided with a single block turbine and supplied with the plentiful products, gas or fluid, available at tier. EV or IV power could be done with a large combustion or turbine, which should be more than enough on-site.

There exist a thing called ender tanks.

Chunkloading is a thing now, is it not? Why the reluctance to do it away from your base? Is the concern other players? Mobs? I just want to understand the issue.

More loaded chunk = more lag to the world. Which this whole thread is trying to increase by using more machines.

I don't know enough about fusion, would that allow you the rates of chlorine you need? What tier does that open up? Chlorine from fusion should be from sulfur + hydrogen or phosphorus + helium.

I think I've seen chlorine plasma at some point.

[Anarack]

Not sure why you want a fusion recipe as if it follows the existing pattern even the fastest recipe L/t recipe you would need many many fusion reactors to keep up. At that point you might as well start replicating it.

[0lafe]

Not sure why you want a fusion recipe as if it follows the existing pattern even the fastest recipe L/t recipe you would need many many fusion reactors to keep up. At that point you might as well start replicating it.

The one I suggested uses times that would put an mk3 at the speed I was making chlorine before salt gets removed. So only one reactor, 2 if you're feeling particularly needy for chlorine.

There exist a thing called ender tanks.

moving the fluid isnt the problem, it's generating the power once it's there. Not too bad up to UV, you can just use a naq reactor without it being a huge problem. I just think it's dumb you need a whole new power generator just because this thing has to be far away.

[richardhendricks]

More loaded chunk = more lag to the world. Which this whole thread is trying to increase by using more machines.

Please, be serious.

Considering the large bases I've seen at high tier, an extra 9 chunks loaded on a desolate planet with ~4 machines is hardly a cause of major server lag. Ore drilling plants or ender quarries would be more lag since they would actually touch blocks in the chunk. Oil drilling plants don't touch blocks once they hit bedrock.

How much lag do you think the automated setups spamming Pam's salt at ridiculous speed is creating?

If there's an issue with remote chunk loading due to reliability or feeding coins, fine. But crying "lag" is just not productive.

[noobyaran9]

How much lag do you think the automated setups spamming Pam's salt at ridiculous speed is creating?

Less than chunk loading a oil drilling rig. And adding setup to process salt water => salt => chlorine.

[0lafe]

an extra 9 chunks loaded

yea that's way too much. I was complaining because I thought it was 1 lol

Less than chunk loading a oil drilling rig. And adding setup to process salt water => salt => chlorine.

I'd agree, but the way I setup exu stuff was apparently using 40% of the server or something like that

[richardhendricks]

The one I suggested uses times that would put an mk3 at the speed I was making chlorine before salt gets removed. So only one reactor, 2 if you're feeling particularly needy for chlorine.

I don't have a problem with this solution, it could be implemented as well. I just don't think it offers much gameplay, with a box you just shovel in EU to get chlorine.

So you're saying that you currently need about 16 chlorine/s. With my suggestion I think an HV drill should give you plenty of salt water at a good spot, like ~100+B/s. Maybe change the distillation tower recipe to 16000L salt water => 8 salt at 2s at Mv. That should allow overclocking to get the quantities you need at EV. I'll update my proposal above.

yea that's way too much. I was complaining because I thought it was 1 lol

Is there a single chunk chunkloader? Anyways, I don't think 3x3 chunks for drilling is that much of a server load, since it wouldn't have very many tile entities or block updates.

I'd agree, but the way I setup exu stuff was apparently using 40% of the server or something like that

Yeah, exactly.

[0lafe]

So you're saying that you currently need about 16 chlorine/s. With my suggestion I think an HV drill should give you plenty of salt water at a good spot, like ~100+B/s. Maybe change the distillation tower recipe to 16000L salt water => 8 salt at 2s at Mv. That should allow overclocking to get the quantities you need at EV. I'll update my proposal above.

What I'm saying is that it shouldn't be possible at those tiers, but should have a way that it works at higher tiers by either requiring more machines (not necessarily placed in world, like the PA), or some other gated recipe or something

I don't have a problem with this solution, it could be implemented as well. I just don't think it offers much gameplay, with a box you just shovel in EU to get chlorine.

You also have to supply it with a steady stream of fusion products. I don't see how it's different than your solution, it's just better suited for high tiers, and doesn't have the dumb quirk of needing a dedicated chunkloader and wireless power transfer

Is there a single chunk chunkloader? Anyways, I don't think 3x3 chunks for drilling is that much of a server load, since it wouldn't have very many tile entities or block updates.

It's not as much of a server load problem as it is a limited chunks problem. On servers you will sometimes only be allowed to load X chunks, using any of those for something that clearly doesn't need it, doesn't seem like a good idea to me. Needing a dedicated chunkloader just because it's far away for no other reason than to be far away, I don't see the appeal.

[richardhendricks]

Ok, "limited chunks allowed to be loaded from servers" is a valid reason, but I disagree with the "just because it's far away" because that same logic applies to any remote machine like an ender quarry, ore drilling plant, implosion compressor, or oil pump now.

I'll lower my distillation numbers back down a bit and add your suggestion too.

[0lafe]

And the ender quarry should probably be switched out for some void ore miner, considering mining itself has huge server related issues. Ender quarries are so cheap, but you can't really have more than 1 per dimension because other people gotta mine there too. I have the same problems with the pump, and the ore drilling. That's why I make my oil from trees and mine with the exu quarry, because of the problems with things that are too far away. I have no idea what you mean about the implosion compressor though

[draknyte1]

I guess I could finish the bedrock miner in a hurry if it's really needed..

[noobyaran9]

And the ender quarry should probably be switched out for some void ore miner, considering mining itself has huge server related issues. Ender quarries are so cheap, but you can't really have more than 1 per dimension because other people gotta mine there too. I have the same problems with the pump, and the ore drilling. That's why I make my oil from trees and mine with the exu quarry, because of the problems with things that are too far away. I have no idea what you mean about the implosion compressor though

Keep ender quarry out of this topic please. Ender quarry is nowhere as fast as the any GT ore miner and it doesn't boost outputs. And it's not cheap considering it just caps around IV.

Im fine at keeping things far away as long as it doesn't comes with a cost of server lag.

[0lafe]

Keep ender quarry out of this topic please. Ender quarry is nowhere as fast as the any GT ore miner and it doesn't boost outputs. And it's not cheap considering it just caps around IV. Im fine at keeping things far away as long as it doesn't comes with a cost of server lag.

I just mean on a server, if I throw 4 quarries in each dimension at 0,0 people won't like that, but in single player its fine.

[noobyaran9]

I just mean on a server, if I throw 4 quarries in each dimension at 0,0 people won't like that, but in single player its fine.

One quarry per person at one time should be a rule on the server.

[richardhendricks]

Server lag for the drill + tower is not a valid topic without legitimate numbers.

How many chunks are you limited to loading in the official or unofficial servers? How many players are reaching the tiers where they need this volume of chlorine?

[0lafe]

The server I played did 60 chunks total

[codewarrior0]

I don't think it's really relevant to the conversation. We can play this game all week (How do you get Sodium Persulfate and Vinyl Chloride?),

You missed my point entirely. He is spending literally a hundred times as much chlorine as is absolutely needed to craft a stack of EV machines.

[richardhendricks]

Sure, but the point of the game is progression not "how do I optimize my chlorine usage". If the correct player response to this is to require them to drop back to MV circuits and use other lower tier solutions, I think that's a serious issue with gameplay.

[codewarrior0]

Why do you say that? Hasn't there always been a tradeoff between using lower tier machines for power efficiency or material cost versus higher tiers for compactness or convenience?

[0lafe]

Yea, but much like processing areays, you can't always use the most "efficiency" way. Circuits aren't really more efficient anyway, only that some use less chlorine. For my setup, it's faster, and I think cheaper, to make the highest tier possible. Except for the changing chlorine cost.

Anyway, once you're in IV, crafting a stack of LV circuits isn't too bad. So why in UMV should it be so hard to make an EV circuit.

[richardhendricks]

Crafting LV machines to save power is a gameplay choice - you could choose to make LV machines or use IV machines. Not having enough chlorine to do high tier work is a gameplay limitation. It doesn't open up new choices to make, but restricts them. And restricting them downwards is just poor tiering IMO. It really ruins the sense of accomplishment of reaching tier X when you realize that you can't use tier X machines because of resource limitations and are stuck using tier X-3 * 8.

[codewarrior0]

Using a Replicator to print chlorine is also a gameplay choice. Has anyone figured out the tradeoffs for that?