Sheet Moderation

[Charanraja123]

Okay. This is kind of a nuanced topic, and I am sharing my personal opinions on it.

The sheet needs to be cleaned up/pruned. There are lot of unnecessary entries. Definitions for rows are being misinterpreted (prince_rulers) and some duplicates too. Considering we have a sizable amount of entries and more on the way, this is high time we get it into a more organized state

Since we have already established some structure with the Mod side, i feel that should be reflected accurately in the sheet, since it is the best model we have.

For Example, There is no special column for an independent tribal ruler (he falls under principality). Why is there republic kingdoms?. I think that is so niche of a topic that it does not warrant a row for itself.

Also, it would be nice if someone else could take share the work with @Viridianus in organizing the sheet. I would like to know if you guys (especially @Viridianus) share this feeling of having someone else help him in maintaining the sheet might help.

These are all just opinions that I felt I could share, I apologize if I have offended anyone.

[Charanraja123]

So you need someone to help you moderate the sheet. Honestly post it in the forum. I'm sure there are people eager to contribute to this. Just make sure you have someone with sufficient knowledge to judge things by themselves, to take some pressure/dependence of you

Give India as his first assignment or something xD

[Viridianus]

Actually, I thought you or @Urkaun could. I'm kinda dubious to "call to arms" someone who hasn't proven themselves yet, and @Gr770 is clearly doing too much already.

Should I be that cruel, though? :D India is difficult :D

[Gr770]

To be honest, I'm not doing too much here actually.

My problem is that I work for the national guard and country is still coming to terms with the fact that cops aren't supposed to kill people. I'm just working longer days for now at the maintenance shop.

I didnt want to bring it up on the forums, but I really appreciate the work you have all done.

[Viridianus]

You still find some time for us ;)

Btw, what do you think of splitting count-level and duke-level Petty Kings in the master sheet (each defaulting to the corresponding non-independent title)? I finally understood what bothers me that much about the principalities :D

[Charanraja123]

To be honest, I'm not doing too much here actually.

My problem is that I work for the national guard and country is still coming to terms with the fact that cops aren't supposed to kill people. I'm just working longer days for now at the maintenance shop.

I didnt want to bring it up on the forums, but I really appreciate the work you have all done.

Hey, From what I see, you do all the merges, have the most commits and additions and gave me a platform to have fun breaking a game. I'm satisfied. Also its fun to watch @Viridianus threatening to tear off his own arms. Still waiting for it xP

[Viridianus]

Also, we need a black row that says "Feudal and Clan", like those for Republics and Tribals. It is an important feature that Principalities, Barons and stuff are taken to be feudal.

@Charanraja123: I did not say I would tear off MY arms, those would be arms of the unfortunate formatting offender :D What do you think on the issues I raised - including the suggestion you help in reviewing the changes and comments?

[Charanraja123]

Actually, I thought you or @Urkaun could. I'm kinda dubious to "call to arms" someone who hasn't proven themselves yet, and @Gr770 is clearly doing too much already.

Should I be that cruel, though? :D India is difficult :D

You see, I will add nothing and only be a nuisance to you. As much as I would love to help you, I have absolutely no fucking knowledge on anything you guys talk about. Most of time I have to google words to understand. I dont have anything in me to judge others in those matters basically Now if you want someone to create a new script to write a script for the game. That's something I definitely can do for you xD

[Charanraja123]

Should I be that cruel, though? :D India is difficult :D

Check the forum, we already have a volunteer. Hope he/she doesn't give up before this week

[Charanraja123]

Btw, what do you think of splitting count-level and duke-level Petty Kings in the master sheet (each defaulting to the corresponding non-independent title)? I finally understood what bothers me that much about the principalities :D

All for this, The defaulting also helps both the people filling up the sheet and the modders.

[Charanraja123]

Councillors have possessives. We need a row for that too I think, otherwise it might awkward?

[Viridianus]

1)For English: Shouldn't it go like "$councillor_marshal$'s", with the appropriate localization being inserted from the councillor's "localization"? 2)For other languages this might get trickier. I guess "de" kinda works for French, and I vaguely remember Spanish to have something similar but even German genitive is more demanding (unless we circumvent it with "vom "/"von der " - and even those are gender-sensitive).

[Charanraja123]

1) Oh. okay. I thought we had to take proper possessive terms from the cultures language. But I can do that. Shouldn't be a problem 2) Erghh.. I think this is a the start of localization partition. Things gonna become more tough for us xP

[Viridianus]

1. No, we shouldn't - by the same token we're not gonna replace "Prince of Novgorod" with "Князь Новгородский" or "Князь Новгорода" but with "Князь of Новгород" - as @Urkaun extensively argued, this would become a language salad out of control.
2. Yes, technically it is - but we can kinda circumvent this by keeping possessives and non-possessives in different files (or, if that's problematic, in different parts of files).

[Charanraja123]

1) Makes perfect sense. 2) Not possible for different files, as most localisations we override have to be in that particular file which is as same the vanilla file. Different parts of the same file is okay. I'll try to restrict them to the top of the file If i can. Lets see when we get there

[Charanraja123]

I've added some defaults for council titles. Basically if you don't have a specialized female title, it defaults to the male. I hope you guys are okay with that?

[Viridianus]

Oh, I've just asked about it in #55 :D I mean, it makes some sense, but that means we'll have to re-code? Maybe this is better solved through the localization files having something like this: councillor_chancellor_<culture>_female:0 "$councillor_chancellor_<culture>_male$" not through this oh-so-precious custom localization file?

[Charanraja123]

Uhh. I think in both mine and Gib's now deprecated version. We used a similar method of defining male and female only when necessary, so no re-coding is necessary. What you suggest is not implementable in Paradox (You can't fill in culture through a script here). Because I'll have to enter it in manually for every culture. Which then means instead of having a single entry for chancellor when there is no female version, I now have two entries which are repetitive. I think the absence of gender in the localization name by itself means the inclusions of all gender in the code for understanding purposes. I may have explained it in a little convoluted manner, but I hope you get my point

Edit: I'll also explain why custom loc is a big things for us. It unlocks so many possibilities for modding. We can now have the third spouse have a separate name from the first one. Have the elector with the most weightage get a special title. Have the most powerful vassal's son get a title. You get my point. So the celebration(maybe it was only me xP) of custom loc is not particularly related to this but to the overall possibilities of what can be achieved

[Viridianus]

Which then means instead of having a single entry for chancellor when there is no female version, I now have two entries which are repetitive

Yep. Sounds like a good coding practice - so that, if we get a female entry, we can change it without even touching the big "convoluted" code (I don't actually see what's so convoluted about it, but that's a separate issue), only editing the place where the localizations such as "Marszalek" are stored. You'll have to keep the whole set of councillor culture names in some place, right?

[Charanraja123]

localization/english/ctp_council_custom_loc_l_english.yml . Is this what you are asking for?

I meant my explanation as convoluted not the code itself .

[Viridianus]

Well, yes. I suggest that all the coding be uniform (i.e. always presuppose existence of a female version), and the identity be dealt with in this file and this file only.

[Charanraja123]

Hmm...Well i dont think there are enough female versions to warrant it to become a default for me. But I could add it, if you and others want it too. @Gr770 Resolve this for us xD

[Viridianus]

@Gr770 - I'll sum it up: we have several requests for you.

1. Rows for independent counts in MT and RC. Please.
2. Technical row saying "Feudal and Clan" in MT, akin to the one in RC or to the "Republic" row below.
3. Decision on the coding problem we discussed immediately above.
4. Decision on "Russian localization" pull request. Pretty please.

[Charanraja123]

Interesting . I would have guessed you listing out "Russian Localization" first. xD

[Gr770]

I havent pull anything because of the patch today, so that will be done this afternoon

[Gr770]

Personally, I dont feel like we need female titles for council positions if none are given. Especially since they will be rare outside of spymaster.

[Viridianus]

Interesting . I would have guessed you listing out "Russian Localization" first. xD

People remember the last thing best ;)

[Viridianus]

@Gr770: Regarding rows for Main Titles: I've set the needed structure in Requested Cultures, please do similarly (and, for Force's sake, do it through "Add row", not through dragging) - or just lift the protection if it's too complicated.

[Viridianus]

Oh, and also: Central Germanic is somehow under hard lock AND having a very nasty design failure in Chancellor's row. Please set it to warning - or maybe just remove all locks, after a while it does not sound like such a good idea anymore.

[Gr770]

Alright, these are done.

[Charanraja123]

Since this is "the Issue tab" xD, I thought I would highlight one more problem that I see in the sheet. Obviously this I think is going to a another long discussion, but hopefully it leads to some improvements or clarifications.

The Curious Case of The Sultan

There are lot of problems with currently modding in the sultan rows. Let me list them out. 1) The fact that we still have not been able to separate them into Malik and Sultan. My method was to change it based on whether they followed a head of faith. Any suggestions that would like to differentiate them is also welcome. Also no rows for Malik in the sheet (But wait, read the post fully) 2) I think this should be its own sheet. Because having sultan flavorisation only does not make sense. What about the rest of the court? Are the english sultants son sill going to be use Prince/Princess flavourisations? In addition this ties heavy into alt history and the reconstruction of Islamic terms into usually historically Christian cultures. I think there is a lot of work to do *especially on the non-coding side), before this can be implemented in a complete manner that adds to the experience of the player.

What I suggest is 1) Let sultan be in the sheets (for now) but remove it from the mod so that it doesn't give the feeling of a half worked feature to the player. 2) The second step (In the future, when we have time) would be the migrate it to another sheet and work in a step by step manner to reconstruct or construct those Islamic terms in the context of each Christian cultures language (If this is something you guys want to do). Or just drop the whole thing

[Viridianus]

1. Malik is just your regular secular king (as the Arabic columns kinda show), so the sheet contains the needed rows.

2. Have I been not clear enough before about additional sheets? Unless you mean also splitting it in a sub-mod, this is a no-go (it's quite enough that we have RT).

[Charanraja123]

Cool. I just understood everything. Malik is an regular king unrelated to Islam. I thought every Islam following secular ruler (not submitting to Calpih) all across the world would have Malik. Sorry for the confusion

Also. No more sheets, right? xP

[Viridianus]

1. Well, we can specify conditions for Sultans further (say, demand not just islam_religion but some specific faiths or, if possible, tenets), but "Malik" will always be the remainder case, there's no need for three-way King vs. Malik vs. Sultan distinction.
2. Yes, for the following reasons: 2.1. Structure of MT is replicated in RC; any new sheet would have to be likewise replicated, and we know that updating structures is not most people's strongest suit, so that would fall on me. 2.2. Clean-up culture-by-culture will be more complicated if information is dissipated. 2.3. Navigation through the sheets is already suboptimal. 2.4. Search through multiple sheets seems to be unavailable.

[Charanraja123]

1. Yes okay. I definitely agree with you on not having a three-way. That's resolved.
2. I agree with every point. We already have our work cut out for us too. If that is everything we needed to discuss, Is this issue going to say open? or can we close it?

[Viridianus]

I want it to remain as THE place for me to shout things like: "Who broke the sheet AGAIN?")

[Charanraja123]

Noted. I don't think I'll be opening up this Issue tab again. Good luck @Gr770 xP

[Viridianus]

@Charanraja123 - don't hurry out: this is also the place where I can notify you of my progress with EtB modifying and stuff.

[Gr770]

BTW the sheet is fully unlocked.

[Viridianus]

EtB is renewed and filled till k_lithuania.

[Viridianus]

After I found a misplaced comment on Greek Palatine, I finally know why all the "this culture needs to use petty-king system" and "Greek problem is X" comments under the table suddenly disappeared (allowing me to have deleted the now-empty rows). @Gr770 - haven't I specifically mentioned that you should use Add row, not dragging? You simply dragged some titles over the comments, effectively deleting them. It's a good thing I had copied the comments for Volga-Finnic, otherwise we'd lose those as well.

[Gr770]

I specifically used add row.

[Viridianus]

Then how could it happen? Did someone else come and drag them?

[Charanraja123]

I would not rule out that possibility entirely xP. Anyway, On the topic of recovering those lost comments, @Gr770 is it possilbe for you to look through the earlier versions and get that comments back. Might be useful now since we added petty kingdoms/kings as a row

[Charanraja123]

Also, Emperor Mother does not default to Queen mother right? Just making sure.

[Gr770]

1. Comments aren't shown in the sheet history, but I have an idea.

2. No

[Viridianus]

1. The point was, they weren't styled as comments (mostly). They were styled as plain text.

2. Shouldn't - but I'm growing more and more dubious about those two rows overall. It's easy to code them, but only Romance, Slavic, Hungarian and Indo-Aryan have something there, and I would not be surprised to find that most of these are literal translations not used by actual cultures (that includes Russian since, as we know, the король-based titles are overall somewhat dubious). Also, there's obvious competition of "Queen/Empress Dowager" logic - or, rather, it should be but no culture shows that in the sheet as of now.

[Charanraja123]

1. That is why I was asking, those were text entry and should be in the edit history right?
2. Interesting, If I understand correctly, it actually downgrades our mod quality by being filled with not so accurate terms. In that case may be which just shift it into conditional titles, where the condition is them being of that three culture group? So that the rest aren't encouraged to fill those rows up for the sake of completion Also on the topic, Priority for queen mother? What is she is another queen? How does that all work?

[Viridianus]

1. Yep.
2. Yes, it may downgrade us. I don't think putting them into conditionals solves the issue - I mean, many of what we have there now is dubious. The problem is, we'll have the vanilla's "Queen Mother" and "Empress Mother" all over the place if we don't add our own; maybe having the "Mother" part in plain English but the "Queen/Empress" copied from (consort) queens/empresses could be another compromise. @Gr770, what's your call?
3. If we do implement them, they should have low priority. Like, it's an honorary title of a non-ruler (and usually only saved for those who did not seek another marriage - but I suppose flavorization does not allow for married = no). I don't think a duchess (especially a regnant one) which happens to be the emperor's mother could choose to be styled as Empress Dowager rather than Duchess.

[Charanraja123]

2. If vanilla, is the problem, we can always override vanilla keys with some impossible conditions and low priority, so that it never gets called, If should not be that hard. Also your suggestion doesn't work on Indian titles. Since its RajaMatha - "King Mother" because it was usually always a male ruler
3. I'll just give it a priority of around 20, greeter than a countess/ less than a duchess. Or do you want me to go even lower? Also the problem is it is hard for us to differentiate between reagent and consorts titles, So I have no idea how to approach this

[Viridianus]

2. This could also work on vanilla Prince, right? As I mentioned in the forums, we may need them to be off for Germanic. As for Indian - erm, no, it's Mahadevi Mother (sorry for no Macrons) if my idea is implemented.
3. 20 sounds lovely. As for regnant (reagent was funny :D ) and consort... Is it? I thought our only_holder conditions kinda work. The problem is only that, as we code them now, the NAMING convention is "wrong": consort title is the marked one instead of the holder. If Eorlwif will have duke_feudalclan_female and Eorlen will have duke_feudalclan_female_holder (rather than _consort and default), you can always call for the _holder-less convention, and it will auto-return the consort if they differ - so have something like Eorlwif Mother...