JohN100x1 / IsekaiMod

An unbalanced gameplay mod for Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous
MIT License
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4.3.0 Legacies Collection Thread #111

Closed kjk001 closed 1 year ago

kjk001 commented 1 year ago

Hello everyone, I would like to close the threads with leagcy suggestions that were made for 4.2.0 ( #83 #99 ) and start here in a consolidated list of the still open points as well as for new suggestions. I would request that you please use this thread for any requests for additional legacies, description or name change suggestions, etc.

Open ToDos:

Base Archetype: Arcanist - Eldritch Font Name: Arcanist Legacy - ? Description: ? Archetypes: Villain there is some debate in the 5.0 thread #109 on the features the mastermind rework of the villain should get and this is fairly high on that list. Regardless of if we in that patch then merge it into their normal progression, just add this legacy as a free feat, or make it one of the options of their normal selection, patching it early can't hurt...

Speaking of Magus, the only issue is it's stripped of features mainly because IP already grants spell failure reduction and an extensive spell list. So perhaps just take an archetype for the legacy instead of base class? The infamous Sword Saint comes to mind, of course, because it adds quite some features that are not reliant on spell combat.

Mythalar suggestion to mod magus legacy

Suggestions that are either To much work for this release due to the amount of customization or require more detail so that I know what to do

ThePiggyGalaxy commented 17 hours ago

I'd like a separate monk-adjacent legacy, for a monk that like the shifter halves his ac bonus when wearing armour, but unlike the shifter feat it just works with all armour (instead of non-metal) this would also be fine to be changed to all non-heavy armour (in which case you could add something like that as a class feat or normal feat after a certain monk level and armour proficiency).

You could call this: Armoured Daoist / Ironclad Daoist. With a description along the lines of: While you train your body and mind you've come to the epiphany that flesh inherently is weak, so you chose to train in both body and armour, and have specialised your martial arts around this, coward.

Also it would be amazing for this legacy in particular to have a single weapon choice which they'll have to commit to like the Sword saint, but making that a separate legacy is fine as well.

If included in prior mentioned legacy it could be called: Imperial master (as in the Chinese / Korean imperial army) or a Samurai With a description along the lines of: Since young you have trained for your lord and country, to utilise martial arts specifically meant for one specific weapon and whilst wearing a set of armour, you became the pinnacle of your lords army and then died, idiot.

Most of the Feats mentioned for these would have to be custom created, so this is something for a later build.

Mythalar commented 1 year ago

Inquisitor has domains too (and without bonus spells, which is perfect) so that effectively the same thing yes.

Regarding Witch I think you know by now I would just include it in the Mastermind (or give it for free to this subclass ang getting to choose a dual at lvl1 ?)

kjk001 commented 1 year ago

the potential split of villain into mastermind and tbd is part of the 5.0 discussion, so for 4.3 the class is still villain which alongside IP is the only current option for the as of now unnamed witch archetype.

Mythalar commented 1 year ago

Yes sorry I mixed them up. Will work on the Leyline witch legacy later.

Side question : domain would have to scale off CHA I guess?

Rinelw commented 1 year ago

Personally, I think this extent of Kineticist powers should be a separate op ability instead of legacy that you can chose on lvl 1. I know it's balancing a class that isn't balanced by design, but it still makes other choices suboptimal and what's wrong in balancing abilities in the same category so one ability doesn't feel worthless compared to others. And I like doing solo runs with Protagonist that way it doesn't feel too op.

_Originally posted by @Nerin3 in https://github.com/JohN100x1/WOTR_IsekaiMod/issues/108#issuecomment-1477933346_

Rinelw commented 1 year ago

Oracle legacy feels weak compared to sorcerer legacy though As for tactician maybe I'd move studied target there or give him inquisitor abilities and just make it into inquisitor legacy.

kjk001 commented 1 year ago

their definition is literally identical except for the name I used for the selection though:

                    Helpers.CreateLevelEntry (1, ExtraSelection ),
                    Helpers.CreateLevelEntry(3, ExtraSelection),
                    Helpers.CreateLevelEntry(6, ExtraSelection),
                    Helpers.CreateLevelEntry(9, ExtraSelection),
                    Helpers.CreateLevelEntry(12, ExtraSelection),
                    Helpers.CreateLevelEntry(15, ExtraSelection),
                    Helpers.CreateLevelEntry(18, ExtraSelection),
                    Helpers.CreateLevelEntry(1,  OracleSelection),
                    Helpers.CreateLevelEntry(3, OracleSelection),
                    Helpers.CreateLevelEntry(6, OracleSelection),
                    Helpers.CreateLevelEntry(9, OracleSelection),
                    Helpers.CreateLevelEntry(12, OracleSelection),
                    Helpers.CreateLevelEntry(15, OracleSelection),
                    Helpers.CreateLevelEntry(18, OracleSelection),

Now the Oracles class feats are not 100% identical to sorcerer, so if you pick a bloodline each time you might get more usage out of it, so if you have a suggestion on where to add those additional selections I will consider it. I am also considering removing some levels for the sorcerer variation because as it stands it already is much more than just a full class progression...

Making the tactician also an inquisitor subtype is certainly an option to buff him, heck I started from the monster tactician when I first came up with it and then went: well but I always missed Animal Teamwork, oh and wasn't there another class that grants the ability to temporarily grant tactic feats to others? Not that I ever really use that lastoption because between my animal companion and summons who needs to buff human companions :D It was very much a prototype...

kjk001 commented 1 year ago

Maybe move the sorcerer to every 4 levels and Oracle to every odd level, or just one of those two changes?

kjk001 commented 1 year ago

Yes sorry I mixed them up. Will work on the Leyline witch legacy later.

Side question : domain would have to scale off CHA I guess?

Making Domains work on Charisma is sadly not very feasible unless I completely switch them over for all characters. The Attribute is actually set in the Resource of the ability in a field that permits only a single value. So that would have to be switched over to charisma. A bonus feat granting additional uses based on either int or charisma might be possible though

ThePiggyGalaxy commented 1 year ago

I'd like a separate monk-adjacent legacy, for a monk that like the shifter halves his ac bonus when wearing armour, but unlike the shifter feat it just works with all armour (instead of non-metal) this would also be fine to be changed to all non-heavy armour (in which case you could add something like that as a class feat or normal feat after a certain monk level and armour proficiency).

You could call this: Armoured Daoist / Ironclad Daoist. With a description along the lines of: While you train your body and mind you've come to the epiphany that flesh inherently is weak, so you chose to train in both body and armour, and have specialised your martial arts around this, coward.

Also it would be amazing for this legacy in particular to have a single weapon choice which they'll have to commit to like the Sword saint, but making that a separate legacy is fine as well.

If included in prior mentioned legacy it could be called: Imperial master (as in the Chinese / Korean imperial army) or a Samurai With a description along the lines of: Since young you have trained for your lord and country, to utilise martial arts specifically meant for one specific weapon and whilst wearing a set of armour, you became the pinnacle of your lords army and then died, idiot.

In the same vein some more isekai backgrounds in cultivation settings or just ancient China settings would do great, e.g.

Mythalar commented 1 year ago

Making Domains work on Charisma is sadly not very feasible unless I completely switch them over for all characters. The Attribute is actually set in the Resource of the ability in a field that permits only a single value. So that would have to be switched over to charisma. A bonus feat granting additional uses based on either int or charisma might be possible though

A tad sad since DC (for those which have one) are WIS based too, but if it can be fixed... Not on Git but Homebrew Archetypes includes an Elder Mythos Cultist that is based on charisma for spellcasting and domain (and is eligible for Impossible domains mythic ability)

kjk001 commented 1 year ago

Correction on your statement, the cultist gets two specific domains Madness and Chaos that are Charisma based. Those domains are also hardcoded to charisma in it so would use charisma even if they were added on another Archetype of cleric.

As is the void domain they added separatly from the archetype.

If you add on another domain with Impossible domain it should be calculated wis based unless I overlooked something in their code. Feel free to try and then tell me.

Mythalar commented 1 year ago

Correction on your statement, the cultist gets two specific domains Madness and Chaos that are Charisma based. Those domains are also hardcoded to charisma in it so would use charisma even if they were added on another Archetype of cleric.

As is the void domain they added separatly from the archetype.

If you add on another domain with Impossible domain it should be calculated wis based unless I overlooked something in their code. Feel free to try and then tell me.

I will this evening for the sake of it. It surprising since Madness and Chaos can be used on their own by any cleric as WIS based powers, but it could be a specialy tailored version. I'll test the impossible domain.

kjk001 commented 1 year ago

Correct they are special versions added specifically by the archetype.

9ebe166b9b901c746b1858029f13a2c5 is the normal madness domain edeaf656aa3652d49abb2350b4c1e579 their tailored version

Mythalar commented 1 year ago

@kjk001 I could make some tests and you were perfectly right impossible domains are calculated WIS based for use/day and DC but not the 3 specific ones.

There are not so many domain powers with DC so not so bad if a CHA bonus cannot be added.

Rinelw commented 1 year ago

Maybe for oracle add ability to get Final Revelation earlier by spending a feat, and make revelation feats separate?

kjk001 commented 1 year ago

I would always at least bundle it with the Arcana Option so people that feel they have enough revelations have the option to pick a spell instead. Or perhaps just with a repeatable none option. But I will consider such a second selection and where and how many levels of it to add

kjk001 commented 1 year ago

@Nerin3 on another note since your suggestions for flavortext tend to be good could I encourage you to fill in some of those "?" above?

ThePiggyGalaxy commented 1 year ago

In the same vein some more isekai backgrounds in cultivation settings or just ancient China settings would do great, e.g.

  • Scholarly sectarian: You used to be part of a scholarly faction of the murim of your old world, you used all your time acquiring knowledge but died before you could obtain all of it. You can use the highest between your intelligence or your wisdom when you use knowledge, lore or perception checks and gain proficiency in these
  • Demonic cultist: Before you died you used to practice demonic arts inside of the Demonic Cult of your previous world's murim, this made you quite aggressive, but helped you grow your strength quickly, however your increased aggression was likely the cause of your death You can use the highest between your strength and dexterity for athletics and mobility check and gain a proficiency in these

should I make a separate issue for the background suggestions?

kjk001 commented 1 year ago

probably a good idea because I think John doesn't check this thread as it contains only my todos

Necht commented 1 year ago

Another the Paladin's Legacy. Something like "Light in the Dark"

Combining all the passive auras of a paladin and his archetypes that affect his allies. At the same time, these auras act 30 feet around the character. If it is possible to do so. Just like the archetype of the paladin Martyr.

UPD: You can also add auras from other classes so that the hero is a "tower of auras". Otherwise, it may be extremely weak compared to other legacies.

Mythalar commented 1 year ago

Another the Paladin's Legacy. Something like "Light in the Dark"

Combining all the passive auras of a paladin and his archetypes that affect his allies. At the same time, these auras act 30 feet around the character. If it is possible to do so. Just like the archetype of the paladin Martyr.

UPD: You can also add auras from other classes so that the hero is a "tower of auras". Otherwise, it may be extremely weak compared to other legacies.

All paladin auras, 30f instead of 20 (martyr) and pack it up with Warrior of the holy light features and voila

Necht commented 1 year ago

All paladin auras, 30f instead of 20 (martyr) and pack it up with Warrior of the holy light features and voila

I'm not sure about that. The "Power of Faith" ability requires "lay on hands", so you will need to add a similar ability, but I don't want that. The reason I want passive auras is because I'm playing a legend, and I want 20 hero levels and 20 paladin levels. And strengthening this assembly with auras would be a nice addition. And i'm afraid that something might break in my character's abilities...

Mythalar commented 1 year ago

Regarding the different pools of similar abilities? Perhaps yes. Thought it would match the light theme. There is a mod that fused them by the way.

ThePiggyGalaxy commented 1 year ago

I believe through something like what the resource unification mod does, this would be fine if it were done as such.

kjk001 commented 1 year ago

I believe through something like what the resource unification mod does, this would be fine if it were done as such.

It would also be quite unecessary for our mod as our ressources are already unified for the most part and getting more unified to the base game as we go.

You could if you took the shaman legacy for example switch to a level of shaman and watch as those spirit progressions suddenly move out of the class and onto the character level for being displayed. Same for Kineticist and their Kinetic Blast. It would be a waste of a level but you can do it to check :)

I can check if there is a way to increase the range of auras only if a specific feat is present rather than for everyone.

Mythalar commented 1 year ago

If it has to be for everyone that's not really an issue I guess, since the other abilities of the Martyr paladin (songs) are already on a 30f basis. That would buff them just a little.

Rinelw commented 1 year ago

Base Archetype: Witch Name: Witch Legacy - Pactmaker Description: You were once an ordinary person in your original world, until you were summoned by a mysterious entity to another world full of magic and monsters. There, you learned how to make pacts with various beings, from spirits and demons to dragons and gods. You use your pacts to gain power, knowledge, and allies in this strange new world. But beware, for every pact has a price, and some beings may not be so willing to cooperate with you. Archetypes: Any archetype really?

Rinelw commented 1 year ago

Base Archetype: Inquisitor Name: Inquisitor Legacy - Domain Lord Description: You were a devout believer in your previous world, but you discovered a dark secret within your church that led to your death. Now, you have been reborn in a world where the gods are numerous and diverse, and you seek to learn their secrets and powers. You can access various divine domains as you level up, gaining their spells and abilities. You are not afraid to use any means necessary to uncover the truth and expose corruption, even if it means going against your own faith. Archetypes: Every non-evil archetype? Mechanics: Mythalars idea for an evangelist build moved over to inquisitor, gaining new domains every few levels. Reason for the move from cleric to Inquisitor is that I need to patch Inquisitor anyway for its other legacy.

Rinelw commented 1 year ago

Base Archetype: Druid Name: Druid Legacy - Nature Mage Description: You were a nature lover in your previous world, but you lived in a polluted and crowded city that stifled your connection to the natural world. You dreamed of escaping to a place where you could be free and wild, and one day you got your wish. You have been reincarnated in a world where nature is abundant and diverse, and you have learned how to tap into its primal magic. You can cast spells that manipulate the elements, summon creatures, and enhance your own abilities. You are a protector of nature and a friend to all living. Archetypes: IP, Hero?

Rinelw commented 1 year ago

Base Archetype: Inquisitor - Judge Name: (Prosecutor name doesn't fit a judge concept imo.) Inquisitor Legacy - Divine Judge/ Judgement Master Description: Judgement Master Description: You were a judge in your previous world, but you were killed by a corrupt system that twisted the law to serve its own interests. You have been reborn in a world where law is often ignored or perverted, and you have sworn to uphold the law and punish the lawbreakers. You can use your judgements more often and more effectively than normal inquisitors, enhancing your abilities and weakening your foes. You are a champion of law and order, and a scourge of chaos and anarchy. Archetypes: Any, but restricted to Lawful alignment.

Mythalar commented 1 year ago

Another the Paladin's Legacy. Something like "Light in the Dark" Combining all the passive auras of a paladin and his archetypes that affect his allies. At the same time, these auras act 30 feet around the character. If it is possible to do so. Just like the archetype of the paladin Martyr. UPD: You can also add auras from other classes so that the hero is a "tower of auras". Otherwise, it may be extremely weak compared to other legacies.

Took some time to actually go through every legacies and noted that only really two are quite bare (compared to base classes) :

Regarding Paladin Legacy, which currently only give true smite and Lay of Hands there would be no need to make another legacy but a combination :

That's not so much a stretch since per RAW (well I know for Isekai...) Martyr and WotHL archetypes ca be chosen at the same time. It would buff the legacy to the point of, say, Dread Lord that has now access to all its class features, bonus to saves, channel corruption, cruelties etc...

Speaking of Magus, the only issue is it's stripped of features mainly because IP already grants spell failure reduction and an extensive spell list. So perhaps just take an archetype for the legacy instead of base class? The infamous Sword Saint comes to mind, of course, because it adds quite some features that are not reliant on spell combat.

kjk001 commented 1 year ago

please see the first post, the fact that paladin will get the same treatment as rogue and dread knight got is literally the first todo on the list ;)

As for magus, I will also add that rework to the list somewhere, but current order is Paladin, Inquisitor, Druid, Bloodrager, Witch, Oracle, Arcanist for the class based legacies that need either creation or some adjustment based on the recent feedback.

About the only archetype that is problematic for magus is eldritch scion because that ***** actually duplicates every single ressource of the class...

Mythalar commented 1 year ago

Yes I saw this, found it a little missing but I guess there could be another paladin legacy then :)

Duly noted for the classes order.

As for Arcanist I do not really see the point since it would be just exploits and those are not so useful that they would justify a legacy by themselves (the casting mode is what's important there). Exception if you put in the exploit list all and every options like Brown-fur transmuter and phantasmal mage features (but would weaken the Mastermind later if the plan is to give it exploits).

Eldrich Scion was part of my brain storming and it's not worth it either : one could just have magus legacy and double with sorcerer to reap all benefits (or bloodrager). That's why I'd suggested Sword Saint as it's quite the only archetype that does not just add :

which are redundant with IP bas features.

kjk001 commented 1 year ago

I thought the idea was to make Arcanist one of the prefered options or even a free addon that does not count against their normal legacies allotment for mastermind later?

Even if they get it by default the option has to be added and the appropriate feats patched first.

Mythalar commented 1 year ago

Well all options are on the table I guess !

Just saying that, as a separate legacy, it's quite barren but can actually be a niche thing since exploits are CHA scaled.

kjk001 commented 1 year ago

for now the villain will get it as an option and when the 5.0 rework comes it can either be directly merged into the main progression or can be added there as a freebie granted by it.

I have the bad feeling that when the actual list of new restrictions on who can pick what legacy comes out for patch 4.3 I will make myself really unpopular as people didn't take the announcement that the options would remain restricted even on the Dual Class Selection serious at all.

Mythalar commented 1 year ago

Quite logical though.

The issue is criterias : domain powers for examples can be selfish, generous, good or bad. Same goes with subclass mechanics : only allowing related legacies (melee for edgelord, castery for mastermind etc...) would only double on what they already have/could have. Support is an issue by itself : bard legacy, as described, would be odd for baddy but bards can be of every alignements so...

Good luck xD (or make a UMM option that bypass restrictions?)

kjk001 commented 1 year ago

The decision is mostly not alignment based and in a way it very much is a doubling down on what this archetype could have, but hopefully in a way that allows every edge lord to be a bit unique in their own way and feels that I give them more creative freedom on what they are rather than feeling stifled...

kjk001 commented 1 year ago

btw I just love feats like this:

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they really make it easy to copy their effect.

Mythalar commented 1 year ago

Adjustments could be made later. I'm quite curious ;)

An actual question though what's are the final plans for inquisitor legacies ?

Fusing some (tactician and judgement/aura) could be done but it would change the flavor. Could also stay separated but giving Eternal judgement to buff up the second one? Don't know if buffing domain is needed if access to all of them/if can choose 6 or 8 of them.

Either tactician or judgement could have bane ability.

kjk001 commented 1 year ago

Those are good questions.

My original thought was to go a similiar route to the chimera sorcerer and give them all an additional domain for every 5 levels because without the special spell list(though that was true for Inquisitor when compared to Cleric anyway) and with the freedom that IP has in picking their spells domains actually loose some of their utility, so I think that will not make them too overbuffed. Then remove 1 or 2 of those selections on Judge and Tactician in exchange for their additional boni that they might get on top of the base archetype.

Or Maybe I will reduce the number of tactical Feats the Judge and Domain Lord have access to adding even more domains for the lord and some other judgy abilities for the Judge.

Either way I feel that no matter what I go with it likely will lead to adjustments in the next few patches as user feedback comes in, so I will just try to strive for something that is at least somewhat balanced when compared to the other legacies...

kjk001 commented 1 year ago

So Judge already looses all the Tactics feats and Bane in Exchange for his judgements, so perhaps just adding bane back there and they will already be fine, I will post screens later when I have a first build, in the meantime paladin now works...

Mythalar commented 1 year ago

Ok I see now. For future reference I would suggest to limit to 2 legacies then :

This way it enforces both themes : a kind of divine general or a full on divine judge. A base class with more domains would be too close to either

kjk001 commented 1 year ago

well tactician is actually the more screwed one in terms of granted benefits that overlap when compared to Judge, besides the summon tactics at level 5 you only gain the ability to summon monsters as a spell like ability but loose the level 20 capstone(not as much of a problem if you do not use alternate capstones as true judgement is not quite as useful for a tactician but if you do it allows you to select Team Leader which grants up to 3 basic teamwork feats to every member of the party) image Whereas the Judge looses the bane and all teamwork but gets some extras that are actually useful even for an IP image

So I would actually base tactician on the base class and just add the summon tactics from the monster tactician and the hunter tactics from hunter. Forcing it to use Team Leader if the alternate CapStone is installed.

Then the Judge gets his Bane abilites back for the second archetype.

The third archetype would still be the domain lord who like the Judge looses access to the tactics as well as bane but gets extra domains.

Judge and Domain Lord are the ones that shoud be mixed the least if we want to keep it balanced.

Mythalar commented 1 year ago

Oh I would have based the Tactician on the Tactical Leader actually, but replacing the Tactician ability (wich is very limited), by a reduced version of Life-Bonded Friendship and with a normal teamwork progression.

Mythalar commented 1 year ago

That would replace Tactician, Hunter Tactics and summon tactics

Mythalar commented 1 year ago

IIRC @JohN100x1 really likes the General vibes, so sharing only to pets and summons is not very satisfying. On the other hand Tactician grants only one teamwork feat to everyone but just X times/day.

A new ability that shares all of them continuously would solve this, and justify less domains (or one really). You could test it with just the Azata superpower to have some insight.

kjk001 commented 1 year ago

hm, given how gutted the actual tactical feat selection progression on that archetype was I kind of forgot it was there and actually used Forester Tactics for the lower level version that buffs allies instead of swift tactician.

Why did no one comment on that for the old archetype?

Ok, I'll change that feat over since using that instead makes sense...

kjk001 commented 1 year ago

image

Now using only Inquisitor feats except for hunter tactics.

Now to fix the heroic legacy so any good character can profit rather than just lawful before I try anything more

Mythalar commented 1 year ago

Seems really good I think, this way no need for the base class, and just a domain (nobility... :p ) and done!

Only concern is the number of uses/days but that can be fixed if need be.

Right for the heroic legacy or that would be very limited...