Sizing overhang structural members...

[theoryshaw]

Hi @andyeck1 (ping @kraut34)

Could use your guy's help on sizing (on center spacing, etc.) the structural members for the overhangs in the sports complex.

There's two overhang distances. 7ft at the entrances and 5ft for the other locations shown below...

We would like to use 16ft long rough sawn 4x6 (3 3/4" x 5 3/4") cedar timbers for the main structural members and galvanized C furring (or similar) for the purlins spanning between the cedar members.

Here is the sectional sketch...

This is priority, since Foremost needs this to finish their foundation reactions.

Please let me know if you need any other information from me.

Thanks, Ryan

[andyeck1]

@theoryshaw , We have sized a 4"x6" Northern White Cedar (No 2 or better) @ 24" oc to work for your condition. The supporting members can be W12x19 at the exterior end and W8x15 on the interior. Do you have any additional info on the c furring?

[theoryshaw]

Thanks Andy,

Thinking of 8ft long galvanized box channel, something like this... http://www.johnsonrollforming.com/pdf/CC-1002.pdf

...with the legs turned up.

Drainage would happen at the ends.

@kraut34, let me know if you have other thoughts.

Thanks, Ryan

[kraut34]

I think you need to have the box channel on its side (opening facing down the roof), so the standing seam has something to attach to.

Toby Krause Krause Custom Builders 920-285-6490

On Wed, Jun 3, 2015 at 10:22 AM, Ryan Schultz notifications@github.com wrote:

Thanks Andy,

Thinking of 8ft long galvanized box channel, something like this... http://www.johnsonrollforming.com/pdf/CC-1002.pdf

...with the legs turned up.

Drainage would happen at the ends.

[image: 2015-06-03 10 18 19] https://cloud.githubusercontent.com/assets/507113/7963792/24d4c972-09da-11e5-8bd0-5bc8ffab5248.jpg

@kraut34 https://github.com/kraut34, let me know if you have other thoughts.

Thanks, Ryan

— Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHub https://github.com/OpeningDesign/Sports_Complex/issues/41#issuecomment-108480967 .

[theoryshaw]

How about something like this... http://www.johnsonrollforming.com/pdf/SSSQR-01.pdf

w/ seam facing up.

Just would like to avoid seeing edge, for aesthetics and cleanliness (birds, etc) sake.

Thanks.

[kraut34]

Ok. Fastening to the rafters would be a little harder. We would have to have a long screw with a flat head and go through the entire box channel, but I see what you are looking for.

Also, Is the reason we are stuck with rafters being 24" o.c. because the snow loads would be too great if we spread them out more?

Toby Krause Krause Custom Builders 920-285-6490

On Wed, Jun 3, 2015 at 4:05 PM, Ryan Schultz notifications@github.com wrote:

How about something like this... http://www.johnsonrollforming.com/pdf/SSSQR-01.pdf

w/ seam facing up.

Just would like to avoid seeing edge, for aesthetics and cleanliness (birds, etc) sake.

Thanks.

— Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHub https://github.com/OpeningDesign/Sports_Complex/issues/41#issuecomment-108616071 .

[theoryshaw]

I'll let @andyeck1 answer the o.c. spacing.

[andyeck1]

We have sized a 4"x6" Northern White Cedar (No 2 or better) @ 24" oc due to the wind loading.

@avitro

[theoryshaw]

@andyeck1 can we get away with 16ft, 18ft or 20ft long 2x8's 24" oc?

Thanks, Ryan

[andyeck1]

I ran a quick number on it and I think it would have to be a 2x10 minimum to work at 24" oc. A 2x8 might work at 16"oc. Do you want us to check? @avitro @KevinZinsmeister

[theoryshaw]

Up to @kraut34

Toby, as we discussed, if we go with 2x construction we'll have to fire treat the lumber.

[theoryshaw]

Also, another option to potential consider here, is exterior grade glulams... we could probably get a larger o.c. spacing.

We would not have to fire-treat gluelams if past a certain size ( i think 4x8).

Thanks Ryan

[theoryshaw]

minimums for timber and glulams... http://publicecodes.cyberregs.com/icod/ibc/2009/icod_ibc_2009_6_par006.htm

[andyeck1]

Engineered wood would be an alternative to glulams. LVLs or PSLs

[kraut34]

I would be interested in glue lams. They might actually be cheaper than the cedar. any chance we could we could get further spacing with the glue lams? On Jun 5, 2015 3:05 PM, "Andy Eck" notifications@github.com wrote:

Engineered wood would be an alternative to glulams. LVLs or PSLs

— Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHub https://github.com/OpeningDesign/Sports_Complex/issues/41#issuecomment-109423231 .

[andyeck1]

Yes, you can space glulams further. Glulams are significantly stronger, but spacing will probably be limited to 4'-0". What is the size of the c furring strip?

Thank you, Andy Eck Ntrive 630-318-1725 Sent from my iPhone

On Jun 5, 2015, at 3:26 PM, kraut34 notifications@github.com wrote:

I would be interested in glue lams. They might actually be cheaper than the cedar. any chance we could we could get further spacing with the glue lams? On Jun 5, 2015 3:05 PM, "Andy Eck" notifications@github.com wrote:

Engineered wood would be an alternative to glulams. LVLs or PSLs

— Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHub https://github.com/OpeningDesign/Sports_Complex/issues/41#issuecomment-109423231 .

— Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHub.

[theoryshaw]

For glulams, how about looking at either...

• 3.5"x7.5"
• 5.125"x7.5"

(Try to shoot for 4ft o.c. - we can align with resin panel seams on the facade)

For purlins, let's look at split-seam square tubing with either...

• 1" x 1"
• 1.5" x 1.5"

[andyeck1]

@kraut34 We want to design the glulams using product that is available locally. Who would you contact for local glulam supply?

[kraut34]

I would suggest Probuild in Fort Atkinson. Phone number is 920-563-8434. Ask for Ryan Huber or Doug Green.

Toby Krause Krause Custom Builders 920-285-6490

On Mon, Jun 8, 2015 at 8:29 AM, Andy Eck notifications@github.com wrote:

@kraut34 https://github.com/kraut34 We want to design the glulams using product that is available locally. Who would you contact for local glulam supply?

— Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHub https://github.com/OpeningDesign/Sports_Complex/issues/41#issuecomment-109996109 .

[theoryshaw]

Thanks Andy, I mentioned this on the phone, but wanted to log here, that those glulams should be exterior grade glulams.

[andyeck1]

@theoryshaw We sized the glulams per the following: 7 1/2" x 5 1/2" members @ 4'-0" o.c. w/ 1.5" x 1.5" tubing at 4'-0" oc max.
will this be sufficient for the PEMB reactions?

@kraut34 FYI - the glulam strength that we used was Stress Class: 24F-E10 or 24F-V11

[theoryshaw]

Thanks Andy, what glulam manufacturer did Probuild provide/stock?

Yes, i think this should be sufficient for finalizing their reactions. I'll ping them to this discussion.

Thanks gentlemen.

[andyeck1]

Basically, they told us that they could get anything.

Thank you, Andy Eck Ntrive 630-318-1725 Sent from my iPhone

On Jun 10, 2015, at 7:00 AM, Ryan Schultz notifications@github.com wrote:

Thanks Andy, what glulam manufacturer did Probuild provide/stock?

Yes, i think this should be sufficient for finalizing their reactions. I'll ping them to this discussion.

Thanks gentlemen.

— Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHub.

[theoryshaw]

@andyeck1 Can you help us size the hanger or connection detail between the glulam and Z-purlin that it's attached to?

Thanks!

[theoryshaw]

scratch that, it's attached to a W-section, not a 'Z' purlin. Still need help with connection, however.

[theoryshaw]

@andyeck1 , BTW, I'm assuming I can go with a W10 x 15 in place of the originally specified W8x15 in this location, correct?

[avitro]

@theoryshaw, you can use a W10x15 in place of the W8x15. Also, the connection from glulam to W-section can be a Simpson GLT5 top flange hanger. Attach GLT to steel header by 3/16" x 2-1/2" fillet welds at each end of the header angle.

[KevinZinsmeister]

The Simpson GLT5 is too narrow for the 5.5" glulam and should be swapped out for a Simpson GLT6.

[theoryshaw]

Kevin, actually, Toby is looking to source a 5 1/8" wide glulam, so that GLT5, from my understanding, would work.

I'm assuming a 5 1/8" x 7.5" glulam will still suffice structurally, correct?

[KevinZinsmeister]

A 5.125"x7.5" glulam is adequate as well.

[theoryshaw]

@andyeck1 / @KevinZinsmeister

What gauge does that 1.5" x 1.5" galvanized square tubing, that's spanning the 4' - 0 1/4", need to be?

[theoryshaw]

fyi, it does not need to be a slip seam tubing, as mention in the discussion above.

[theoryshaw]

Can you help sizing the fasteners, as well? Here's what i'm thinking...

That is, flathead fasteners at the midspan of the tubes steel, and one at the ends.

Use 24' long tubes, to eliminate cutting.

[andyeck1]

The 1.5" square tube can be 1/8" thickness (ASTM A500). Provide (2) #16 wood screws with 2.5" embed.

[andyeck1]

provide the screws at 2" spacing

[kraut34]

Are we OK with using a 1.5" sq. solid tubing instead of a split tubing?

Toby Krause Krause Custom Builders 920-285-6490

On Wed, Oct 14, 2015 at 2:28 PM, Andy Eck notifications@github.com wrote:

provide the screws at 2" spacing

— Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHub https://github.com/OpeningDesign/Sports_Complex/issues/41#issuecomment-148168252 .

[theoryshaw]

The seam 'is not' necessary.

[theoryshaw]

Fasteners and tube to be galvanized, as well.

[kraut34]

The supplier I am working with on the galvanized steel tubing asked if we can go with .109 for a wall thickness. They have a lot of that in stock, but hardly any 1/8". Please let me know if this will work.

[theoryshaw]

@KevinZinsmeister @andyeck1

In answering Toby's question, know that the spacing of these tubes, as detailed out, will be around ~2'-4" O.C.

Thx.

Thanks.

[KevinZinsmeister]

What grade/type steel is the tube? If it's A500 its good at 0.109 wall thickness.

[kraut34]

The galvanized tubing is fairly expensive. Would stainless steel, or aluminum be an option if cost is less?

Toby Krause Krause Custom Builders 920-285-6490

On Tue, Oct 20, 2015 at 1:53 PM, KevinZinsmeister notifications@github.com wrote:

What grade/type steel is the tube? If it's A500 its good at 0.109 wall thickness.

— Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHub https://github.com/OpeningDesign/Sports_Complex/issues/41#issuecomment-149666180 .

[kraut34]

Stainless steel is more expensive and I am guessing that aluminum could corrode if steel clips are attached. If that is the case we will stick with the galvanized steel. Aluminum is $2000.00 less, so please let me know if I am wrong about corroding issues.

Thanks

Toby Krause Krause Custom Builders 920-285-6490

On Tue, Oct 20, 2015 at 5:28 PM, Toby Krause tobykrause@gmail.com wrote:

The galvanized tubing is fairly expensive. Would stainless steel, or aluminum be an option if cost is less?

Toby Krause Krause Custom Builders 920-285-6490

On Tue, Oct 20, 2015 at 1:53 PM, KevinZinsmeister < notifications@github.com> wrote:

What grade/type steel is the tube? If it's A500 its good at 0.109 wall thickness.

— Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHub https://github.com/OpeningDesign/Sports_Complex/issues/41#issuecomment-149666180 .

[theoryshaw]

You could go with aluminum (contingent on structural analysis), but like you hinted at, you'd have to put some type of separator (neoprene, epdm, pvc) gasket between the clips and the aluminum to prevent corrosion.

[tfodden]

or go with stainless steel clips?

[kraut34]

​1/8" wall aluminum is size where we are saving significant money. If we have to go bigger than that, the cost will be about a wash. Let me know if 1/8" aluminum will be strong enough to check into further.

Thanks,​

On Oct 21, 2015 9:57 AM, "Ryan Schultz" notifications@github.com wrote:

You could go with aluminum (contingent on structural analysis), but like you hinted at, you'd have to put some type of separator (neoprene, epdm, pvc) gasket between the clips and the aluminum to prevent corrosion.

— Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHub https://github.com/OpeningDesign/Sports_Complex/issues/41#issuecomment-149923265 .

[KevinZinsmeister]

What grade of aluminum is being used? 6061-T6?

[kraut34]

yes.

Toby Krause Krause Custom Builders 920-285-6490

On Wed, Oct 21, 2015 at 1:25 PM, KevinZinsmeister notifications@github.com wrote:

What grade of aluminum is being used? 6061-T6?

— Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHub https://github.com/OpeningDesign/Sports_Complex/issues/41#issuecomment-149985204 .

[KevinZinsmeister]

1.5" square 6061-T6 tube with min wall thickness of 0.095" is acceptable

[kraut34]

Thanks Kevin!

Toby Krause Krause Custom Builders 920-285-6490

On Wed, Oct 21, 2015 at 2:08 PM, KevinZinsmeister notifications@github.com wrote:

1.5" square 6061-T6 tube with min wall thickness of 0.095" is acceptable

— Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHub https://github.com/OpeningDesign/Sports_Complex/issues/41#issuecomment-149996556 .

[theoryshaw]

Toby, are you going with SS clips or a using a separator btwn steel clip and aluminum?