Closed madame-rachelle closed 3 years ago
Shockwave508
commented
3 years ago In regards to the "Master Race" difficulty, it has already been renamed to "This Is A Blazkowicz Job".
And the nude lady gore sprites were recently removed in the current devbuilds, partly because the gratuitous nature, and also because they're leftover assets that aren't used at all in the game.
DoomJedi
commented
3 years ago I come from a history of 1-2 controversial mods (both holocaust and nudity wise), and so my general tendency is clearly against censoring of a game in any way (and in this case - especially on issues barely any person had/posted/made aware issue with). I did give up eventually on many issues about one of my mods (but not the other) and over-censored them, but it's for my particular case. Though I didn't make a final opinion on the Brutal Doom issue (won't mention it here, was a particular controversy about some particular art there). And I already agreed with removing some of (unjustified in that particular case and use) nudity from BoA, so I try to be objective despite all that. I also supported Torm for making some C3M1 changes that were initially not to my liking, as he explained them so well to me, and taking into account the things he did keep - again, for good reasoning.
So I'll try to be as objective here as I can.
Mod can never please everyone, as people has different sensitivities, and to please them all - is to "kill" the mod (so to speak). Like all-pleasing Hollywood flick.
Now to particular issues:
Video footage was too gory for my opinion, too detailed, and I'm used to see such footage on Holocaust day, still it made even me uncomfortable. As video footage, same as sprites wouldn't bother me nearly as much.
Mengele as Boss as fully legit and justified. Will always be against changing him. Same for other camp art.
Paris jewish posters felt too much for me, from the first time I ever played that level. Don't think it's justified there and it's really unnecessary.
Don't have opinion on tributes, whatever you decide. Just a few thoughts - did Romero head felt offensive to Romero? No. But indeed, tribute sounds like...positive thing/representation, like it is for Laz and Afa. Yet we didn't get complaints for any of the people mentioned, if they don't mind - why others would get offended on their behalf? Hate people who are offended for others.
"The one female boss in the game has her breasts gratuitously pop out when she dies." Intentional tease on one frame, on a fast death animation noone will notice. Death frames run fast, only once, it's not like making it such on walking or attack frames. To notice that frame - to really notice - one needs to browse through BoA art. Also on death frames such is more justified realistically, as you don't control your falling (in general and while being shot dead especially) like you do your walking representation. Most players are guys anyway and can only appreciate anyway. So I"m clearly and strongly against any change on that.
Skill names - I always used funny skill names in my mods, so those can be easily changed for something that is both funny and un-offending to women and without racial references. I'd prefer funny, original but safer skill levels. But don't see a big issue there.
"This is in reference to the nude lady gore sprites that are still in the game as of the last release" As said before - I think this is petty, mad...and madding - to get remarks about sprites removed from the game itself from "resource-browsers", but I already agreed/gave up/whatever-nomatter - to removing those from BoA resources. I was surprised it was originally included in BoA.
madame-rachelle
commented
3 years ago Don't have opinion on tributes, whatever you decide. Just a few thoughts - did Romero head felt offensive to Romero? No. But indeed, tribute sounds like...positive thing/representation, like it is for Laz and Afa. Yet we didn't get complaints for any of the people mentioned, if they don't mind - why others would get offended on their behalf? Hate people who are offended for others.
In general I would agree with you - if the person was aware of it and okay with it. Both of these people however are quite distant from the community and may not even be aware of it. Furthermore, it does not take an explicit mention of "I'm offended" for an offense to take place. These people may not be okay with their in-game depictions and may have just remained silent for whatever reason. I would sleep a lot better at night if I knew both Randi and Enjay were fine with how their homage characters were depicted. If they are, then it's a non-issue.
DoomJedi
commented
3 years ago To take things into perspective on this whole matter...nudity-wise, what BoA has compared to commercial Duke Nukem 3D or even Shadow Warrior...really? If the character - as a character is "manly man Machoman", it's not out of character to have some...manly man talk (skill names are sure something quoting the main character basically (like parallel Duke3D voice-over on those), it the core idea of skill level names) and related stuff. When it's justified for character and world-building. If it's something that character would say on the related skill.
We should be more ethic that epic commercial games? Do those have issue with Cyberpunk, GTA series? And if they did - do they actually expect the related companies to address those? Not to mention nude mods for almost any recent game. With full male and female nudity and sex activities and even ability to choose your...anatomy.
madame-rachelle
commented
3 years ago The whole nudity thing really doesn't bother me. I am just more of the belief that if the resources are unused they should not even exist in the game archive - particularly considering as loaded and likely to cause controversy as those particular ones are.
That being said - I personally find Duke Nukem's depiction of women slightly distasteful, but nothing to get particularly fussy over. I give it a pass for two reasons: 1) It's a game from the 90's, I grew up in the 90's and am quite well aware of how women were depicted in the media back then, so it was just never something that raised a lot of eyebrows back then, and 2) In the grand scheme of things, I don't really think it's as offensive as some people make it out to be. Would Duke Nukem have been a better game without it? I honestly don't know, I know some people will vigorously argue their perspectives on that one way or another, some in bad faith and others having a dog in the fight and knowing what they are talking about.
As for BOA's depiction here, like I said, I don't find much reason to get too fussy over it here. In fact I find it even less offensive than Duke Nukem's because the appearance (when it was there) was only very brief and then you moved on. It would be entirely different if, say, you actively did something that was equally sexual and offensive in nature to these women, but to me, getting upset over it just because they are women is a bit of a double standard (do we not have tons of male gore sprites in Doom, itself?).
Do I think it's great? No. (And on that note, do I find Doom's gore to be great? No, not really, but it's really not the reason I play it anyhow) Am I going to lose my shit over it though? Fuck no. Even if I didn't carefully pick my battles, I certainly don't think this would be one hill to die on willy nilly anyhow. But that's just me.
DoomJedi
commented
3 years ago " It's a game from the 90's," Were 40s less macho? And BJ as a game is from the 90s.
Again, for Duke3D it was also in character. One can decide if it's fitting nowdays to make a game about such macho character - or not, but once you do - if it fits the character, complements it - it's fine. As macho (/retro male) characters (like BJ, Doomguy, Duke etc) live and meet "macho world" and goes to macho places - which we, normal people - can live near and yet never notice or visit. He attracts his experience to him. As they say - hammer sees only nails. If you make a hammer mod - it's okay to put nails in it. And it's usually done with humor anyway, not in offensive way. And mostly with just nudity and not beyond, and even that - briefly. If I'm making Keen mod, or Mario mod - it won't fit.
"do I find Doom's gore to be great" That was a particular issue with a very particular type of gore (the rest can be adjusted anyway_), just sayin'.
Ozymandias81
commented
3 years ago Really ppl nowadays can't enjoy a single thing. We'll soon live in a Disneyworld. I won't add anything else to this.
Tormentor667
commented
3 years ago Huh yes, I somehow expected that to happen sooner or later ;) First of all thanks @madame-rachelle for pointing that out and giving your opinion towards that. With a few things I do agree, and with a few I do not - but let me explain and go into details:
madame-rachelle
commented
3 years ago Doomworld is well known for its bully brigades and scapegoating, so I don't even know how much of this is genuine concern versus "let's just attack Tormentor because he's villain of the day and we're trying desperately hard to be as toxic a space as Twitter itself" - but as for the Randi thing - have you actually asked her? I know personally if I was depicted this way I would be upset. Maybe not enough to disown the mod itself but ... again I don't know Randi well enough to know her thoughts on this or even for that matter speak for her. Nevertheless, if a character is a homage to me I would want them to represent me at least somewhat positively, not being a shitfaced drunk talking about what's in my pants.
Tormentor667
commented
3 years ago I will definitely contact her, but by all means - I never considered the NPC Randi to be a bad represantation. He is and has a 'character', and he has his heart on the right place, he is a clever technician and has a lot of knowledge, he is not just a shitfaced drunk idiot.
madame-rachelle
commented
3 years ago Sounds good to me, thank you. :)
TheKins
commented
3 years ago Do people really expect us to change a game's fictional character from male to female, because the person in real-life he was inspired from changed his gender?
Alternatively, you could just change the character's name to be something that doesn't have unfortunate implications.
Tormentor667
commented
3 years ago The question is not if it can be done or if anyone else already did it. The question is about "has it to be done?". I sent Marisa Heit (randi) a personal message a few minutes ago about this situation, explained the facts and I am eager to hear what she thinks about it.
Alternatively, you could just change the character's name to be something that doesn't have unfortunate implications.
I'd rather change the unfortunate implications ("dong") instead of removing an homage to a person that has a huge impact on the community.
crashmahoney
commented
3 years ago If it's your intention for the character to be a respectful homage, and not a nasty personal attack, then yes, you should change it to either not reference randi at all, or to be female, without question.
TheKins
commented
3 years ago The question is not if it can be done or if anyone else already did it. The question is about "has it to be done?".
Ideally, unless you wanna look real bad.
I sent Marisa Heit (randi) a personal message a few minutes ago about this situation, explained the facts and I am eager to hear what she thinks about it.
Shouldn't you have done this before adding them?
I'd rather change the unfortunate implications ("dong") instead of removing an homage to a person that has a huge impact on the community.
Deadnaming and turning them into a sleazeball without their knowledge... some friggin' homage.
Just run a find/replace on the NPC's name to change it to something fictional or another developer on the project (with their knowledge!!!) or something.
DoomJedi
commented
3 years ago "Shouldn't you have done this before adding them?" Did Doom devs asked Romero before putting Romero head in? Since when it's a must for a tribute/easter? I added youtuber voice clip to one of my mods without asking, as a tribute to him, so what?
Name is just a name. Nick is just a nick. Person has not rights over his nick, nicks and names are not copyrighted. We can call any BoA character by any nick (including zdoom nicks).
TheKins
commented
3 years ago Did Doom devs asked Romero before putting Romero head in?
Yes. He was actively involved in that Easter Egg, as a prank on other members of Id during development. If you're gonna try and gotcha me, at least throw a little research behind it.
DoomJedi
commented
3 years ago I heard him telling the whole story about him accidently discovering the easter egg (before doom release).
TheKins
commented
3 years ago He discovered the graphic, then augmented the Easter Egg with his own audio. He was well aware of what went out the door and onto shelves and hard drives.
Stop trying to bend this debate (that you're at least in part responsible for) towards being something it isn't.
DoomJedi
commented
3 years ago I'll leave this debate, even better for me. I have life you know, and much better things to do.
madame-rachelle
commented
3 years ago @Tormentor667
If you want to know, who is 'fucked up in the head' as well, just check the credits of Blade of Agony - there is a category called "Playtesters", you will be surprised...
This quote from Doomworld REALLY bothers me on a deep emotional level, more than I can possibly express into words here. I know you were just trying to defend yourself. I promise you I am NOT trying to look for excuses to hate you or to ruin your reputation. I PROMISE you that! I know that the bully brigade on Doomworld can be too much to handle sometimes - I have been a victim of it too, on several occasions, personally! I know how bad they can get.
But ... you just offered up every single person on that list, willing or not, as a lamb for sacrifice. You spoke for those people and blatantly said "these people are okay with every bit of offensive content, whether they are aware of it or not."
That is NOT okay. Seeing that was something that upset me and brought me to the point of tears, actually. There was a multitude of ways you could have handled it without self-eviscerating yourself to appease the crowd, and also without throwing those people under the bus. You could have just said "I was unaware of these additions to the game, it happened without my knowledge." You could also have just said "I am aware of these additions to the game, but I was unaware of their true offensive nature, and for that I deeply apologize." But you didn't. You did not say either of those things. Instead you went with - this. Essentially saying it's the playtester's fault for not protecting you. I am hurt beyond belief about this - and I don't even know if my name is on that list or not, and I really don't care if it is or not, that was wrong.
Ozymandias81
commented
3 years ago @TheKins Then also don't pop-up only when there is something to criticize "for the baddies" without being an active part of the project, we have invested 6 years on this mod, and for years ppl seems to like it, issues only happens mostly from the Doomworld side (as also Rachael said regarding how people is there) and you sound like those sometimes, thus I admire your works and this is a bit shameful since I am seeing that most of the community, specially during this "pride" period, seems more eager to find scapegoats like unfortunate Torm, which needs to apologize for every single breath he takes. But this way they are touching all of us, I think Torm doesn't have any more words to spend to always justify his works, when you are stressed and have more important things to do I mean... for what? For some tits? For a nickname that has an ironic homage or at least a funny one behind? For some pixels going on screen? For our efforts to create a good plot adding some historical content, just some, and then here we go, the smart guys pops up again. Again, for what? I am happy that I have never contribute actively to Doomworld, have to say sadly. We have all more than 18 years old guys, indeed we are aware that criticisms are important, but this feels instead like a bomb that a portion of the community likes to join just for the sake of. Usually I don't reply this way, usually I don't speak neither because I find so many stupid behaviors everywhere nowadays, and as I said one day we'll live in a Disneyworld. I am always with the team, and I hear words only from them anyway, since I have been dropped too many times (without being active) on reading things like "respect what I say but I won't respect what you'll say, I'll find more reasons to not respect you either even if in good faith".
MuadDib90
commented
3 years ago @madame-rachelle (I know it isn't you who wrote it, but...)
If you want to know, who is 'fucked up in the head' as well, just check the credits of Blade of Agony - there is a category called "Playtesters", you will be surprised...
I am one of the playtesters and this offends me. I am not 'fucked up in the head'. And I am definitely not a person, who is being rude to random people (he doesn't even know at all) on internet; covered by anonymity.
Ozymandias81
commented
3 years ago I think he just misstype something while being very upset @MuadDib90 , you can see by yourself that thread has been edit on purpose
" "You're fucked in the head, Torm" - Congratulations for insulting me, and insulting everyone (!) who has been playtesting the mod as well. I am not gonna join this discussion here though, it's far from being objective and the usual "Torm-bashing" bores me to death. "
TheKins
commented
3 years ago Then also don't pop-up only when there is something to criticize "for the baddies" without being an active part of the project
I have actively and openly criticized parts of this project, from game design through to performance, all throughout development. I'm not some Johnny Trendchaser joining a mob for kicks. I can't really criticize things I don't know about, however, and for the most part the things being discussed today only came to light recently. I also find most of the response from Torm (especially blaming Scuba and the playtesters) fairly disgraceful.
madame-rachelle
commented
3 years ago I'm really not trying to be rude to random people on the internet, and if I came off that way that was not my intent, sorry. I am really just pointing out that there were a whole bunch of better ways to handle the response to the way the people on Doomworld handled this. I can also very much understand mistyping when you are upset, as well, as I have done that myself on a number of occasions.
MuadDib90
commented
3 years ago I'm really not trying to be rude to random people on the internet, and if I came off that way that was not my intent, sorry. I am really just pointing out that there were a whole bunch of better ways to handle the response to the way the people on Doomworld handled this. I can also very much understand mistyping when you are upset, as well, as I have done that myself on a number of occasions.
I am sorry too... It was meant for the person, who actualy wrote it. And to let you all know, that I have also feelings and I am normal like everybody else. (I wanted it only to be assigned to that post.) Sorry, my bad.
Ozymandias81
commented
3 years ago Yeah only came to light recently and why not fuel them? Again Torm edit (see he still have to apologize via "manners" too) the post, things like these may turn very bad your day don't you? I am just saying this because these are my considerations regarding Torm, which is first a friend of mine, and second because I would have dropped everything to hell after a day like this, even if my patience has always been unmistakenly legendary in these years of modding, and I love too much BoA to feel down just for some futile horsheshit behind a couple of images and words. Anyway, I have better things to do, as DoomJedi said, I just hope things won't rise up again in a blatan SJW similar shit since this is important for us, and that's why also we plan to take care of mentioned things soon. This at least coming from me.
AFADoomer
commented
3 years ago We need to do a 3.1 (3.0.1?) interim release to take care of the most volatile issues.
GrammatonLegio
commented
3 years ago If it's your intention for the character to be a respectful homage, and not a nasty personal attack, then yes, you should change it to either not reference randi at all, or to be female, without question.
Says who, though? It's their right to decide what to do, Torm have contacred a person in question, what will be decided is sure not a thing we can change. And speaking in such a tone is an arrogance, which leads to worsing situation.
Tormentor667
commented
3 years ago @madame-rachelle this happens if you don’t care about re-reading your own replies and they get unfortunately misunderstood because it lacks a contextual sound of voice.
By no means I wanted to declare testers responsible for the content - my message unfortunately was totally misunderstood (can’t blame that on anyone though).
What I wanted to say (but obviously failed) is that a lot of reputable and well-known people tested the mod, that we spent a lot of time listening to their feedback and with their approval all together decided that the sensitive content is well-handled and this was not just a decision of one (my) person.
Insulting me means also insulting these persons, and I wanted to make this clear as there are obviously people around who didn’t think of that.
Tormentor667
commented
3 years ago We need to do a 3.1 (3.0.1?) interim release to take care of the most volatile issues.
Because of a few people from a totally toxic community stormraging because they have personal issues with me? Has anyone yet read this kind of feedback outside Doomworld? ModDB? YouTube? Wolf3D?
I really don’t want to bend the knee, it doesn’t feel right. We took care of a lot of issues and 3.1 will improve this - but a 3.0.1 just because of what is happening on Doomworld doesn’t stand in relation.
madame-rachelle
commented
3 years ago Yes, I can understand mistyping/being misunderstood, like I said it's happened to me so many times. I apologize I did not mean to take things to another level on this, I think you can understand how I felt when reading that, though.
I will be completely honest - I hold no ill will towards the team for this, and I completely understand that mistakes do happen. On the other side though, this whole situation does seem to be blown a bit out of proportion, making it into something worse than it really is. There's a massive difference between ignorance and bad intent, and while neither can be excused, one of these is still way worse than the other.
Tormentor667
commented
3 years ago I also find most of the response from Torm (especially blaming Scuba and the playtesters) fairly disgraceful.
As I said: Totally unfortunate, I am sorry that my reply can be mistakenly interpreted like I am blaming the testers on these issues.
I described my intentions to @madame-rachelle and there is nothing more I can say. I should have shut the fuck up and ignore the thread on Doomworld or at least let it cool down for a while and answer without emotions interfering.
Dynamo128
commented
3 years ago I feel like I need to chime in on this regarding something Doomjedi said:
"Yet we didn't get complaints for any of the people mentioned, if they don't mind - why others would get offended on their behalf? Hate people who are offended for others."
Doomjedi, as you very well remember because we had a private conversation about this topic, I happened to defend you one time in a different community than the Doom one because I saw you had been subjected to mean comments that veered into straight up antisemitism. Not only I condemned them publicly and with you personally, but I even brought it up with the administrators of said community, because I found it to be a completely unacceptable thing. I was offended in your stead.
How can you then say that you hate people who get offended for others? Do you hate me then? I think for such a gross mischaracterization of heit, it's perfectly normal for people to feel offended or disturbed by it, even if they're not the relevant party - who from what I know is barely even active in the community to begin with and likely isn't aware of it.
Please, doomjedi, you're better than this. I hope you will reconsider your position on this particular issue given the example I gave you.
Username-N00b-is-not-available
commented
3 years ago DoomJedi stated he has already left this debate: https://github.com/Realm667/WolfenDoom/issues/782#issuecomment-856791507
DoomJedi
commented
3 years ago DoomJedi stated he has already left this debate: #782 (comment)
You are totally right, and I thank you for mentioned this, but I'll make an exception for a person that did support me on some hard times I had in the toxic part of Wolf3D community.
Indeed there seem to be apparent inconsistency between by sincere and deep appreciation of you standing out for me on Wolf3D media (big thank you for your support), and my recent words. I need to think about it now, and maybe consider changing my mind about it - or phrasing of it at least, to be more exact to resolve the inconsistency. In Sonder case - not Holocaust Survivors were offended, but people on their behalf. I do found it enraging, especially when it's towards art, free expression, in gaming (and retro gaming) genre they do not understand.
If I think of it - in your case you had much more reason to be nearly 100% sure I'll find it offensive. It was so obviously offensive, also you had my replies on previous such issues raised. You had a safe bet there to be sure you represent well my feelings about it.
Nothing "controversial" in BoA comes even close to that level - that people who find it offensive can be THAT sure they represent the "targets" well. On Discord or DHW - it was small forum for small modding community. Our mod was not only in a public development for 6 years, with prior releases of previous chapters - its latest version was downloaded over 30.000 times, with countless reviews (including from big respected gaming sites), feedbacks, comments, play videos - by many independent people all across the globe. I saw female streamer, male, steamers on many difference languages, cultures. German, russian, jews, male, female...And yes, not everyone of 32.000 downloads commented, but what we have - is representative feedbacks from tons of people of all genders and types (including jews, germans, and whoever), for over 6 years of public development and public releases. This to add to our own team - different people from different cultures - including german and a jew. This to add to endless testers of BoA along the years. Even camp got almost total praises in many languages and cultures.
So if there would be a big issue with people offended by mod's content - WE WOULD BE AWARE of it. Like I'm aware of my mod's controversy, both with Sonder and my first mod. You can find on them (Sonder in particular) massive controversy posts, articles of big gaming sites, etc. Just google. I don't have to guess if it offended someone - or at least enough people on behalf of other people. Google "BoA". Google "BoA controversy"...see if you can find any.
Based and what I say - people who are "offended" on behalf of women now, or jews, or whatever - I can reasonably say they are offended on behalf of people who are not offended and do not care.
P.S. BTW only today I posted a post on Wolf3D forum about difference between mistake and bad intent, just as Torm said, and indeed BoA sensitivity issues where deeply discussed (more than one time) with team members and mod's testers - and things that were kept - intentionally - were overall agreed upon by main devs/testers (not that we forced polling of each tester on this), also a tester who tested the whole mod - could report any issue, including sensitivity thing (and so some did, those who saw issues), we never limited reports to bugs only. Testing is not only for bugs, if you don't report something - it means at the very least that it's not worth reporting for you. Not that I intend to push responsibility on testers, this is not what I mean (!), I just listing facts that are maybe not apparent to all. It's not that we did things without getting and taking into account feedbacks (collected over a VERY long period of time from the public, some of those remarks are from C1 and C2 released for many years to general public), things were changed on the way, including camp name and other big issues. We already made hard compromises due to feedbacks (just stating a fact), but there is only so much we can compromise on without feeling self-defeat.
Tormentor667
commented
3 years ago Just got a word from someone that I want to share with you:
Greetings! I believe we never really talked and you most likely have absolutely no idea who I am, nevertheless - I've always been an admirer of your work, and all the awesome things you did (and continue doing) for the community, and I'm writing this message in light of the emerging shitstorm re BoA in its current state. I realise that in a modern society gone awry and in this age of mass hysteria and double standards sticking to one's guns is quite an undertaking that requires courage and selflessness in a face of public shaming and condemnation, still - please be aware that there are people who support you and stay with you on the matter, even if only in the shadows and away from the flame war. If anything - starting polemic with all those fools is a lost cause that would feel like bathing in feces. To a normal adult human being everything in BoA is fine, some things are admittedly borderline questionable but in a game this B-movie-like it's nothing uncommon I believe, and I certainly saw no disrespect towards victims of the Nazis' crimes and genocidal policy or whatever, so the red line was never crossed. And in general - it's better to have a bit of cynicism and dark humor instead of another load of infantile liberal nonsense that's been all the rage these years. Divide et impera indeed, drive the public attention away from the real issues and towards the illusionary ones - and this is where they're going to channel their excessive toxicity and disappointment with this cruel and unjust world.
While I'm at it - I'd also like to thank the team for adding the Soviets and thus not only acknowledging their role in the war (even if the war shown here is highly grotesque and hyperbolic) but also for not depicting them like raging red plague rats ruled by a bloody tyrant and followed by dreaded NKVD butchers slaughtering friend and foe alike. Seriously, thank you.
So in the end - I sincerely wish you and the team fortitude to be able to withstand the storm of idiocy, and best of luck to you all. You are not alone, there are other reasonable people out there that play and enjoy the game, got an actual sense of humor and don't get distracted by nonexistent offences. Take care.
TheKins
commented
3 years ago Just got a word from someone that I want to share with you:
Edited: Don't be a jackass. - AFA
Tormentor667
commented
3 years ago Just noticed that I got banned from Doomworld.
The reason? Various, but mostly this one:
Such as making fun of Marisa Heit for being who she is.
This is by far the most ridiculous situation that I have encountered in my whole life 😀 I have no idea who decided this and if the person in charge even played Blade of Agony or from where he or she got the impression that I am making fun of Marisa but this whole thing makes me crazy 🤦🏻♂️
Just to point that out one final time: I have absolutely no prejudices or words of discrimination against transgender people, it’s their decision and everyone is free to decide what gender they feel. I wasn’t even aware that Randy decided to be Marisa until the middle of the development of Chapter 3 where the npc character has already been established in Chapter 2. Changing this was something I never considered because I found it to be very minor, changing the character to be female would blow things up, changing the dialogue texts either way.
Why someone considers this homage as an insult is far from my understanding. Really. I am so angry right now about this statement, I can’t even find words.
As I said, I already wrote Marisa and I am eager to hear from her - not for getting unbanned at Doomworld but maybe to get an idea what she thinks about her inspired character - that’s the most important thing. Everyone else doesn’t count for me.
madame-rachelle
commented
3 years ago 
I'm not going to weigh in on this as I do not have much to feel about this, I am just bringing you the information.
The only thing I can say is - given that he is one of the administrators on the site and knowing my own role on ZDoom forum I really believe he is doing what he feels is right for the community and for the site, and he has the right to make those decisions, and it's not for me to decide if he is right or wrong about it. It's not the outcome I had hoped for, but in any event it could even be a blessing in disguise. When you mesh that badly in an environment like that someone has to make the decision - for YOUR sake - to separate you from it. I don't 100% agree with everything you have said in this thread but I have chosen to only focus on the key issues that matter most to me, and leave the others for the team to decide and play only an informative role on the rest.
When I say - they ain't your friends - that's kind of underselling it. He probably did you a huge favor and you don't even realize it. You'll sleep better at night knowing you will interact with the folks on that site far less now - they rarely go very far outside that space. The ban sucks though - trust me, I know.
Tormentor667
commented
3 years ago You are making good and valid points @madame-rachelle - as usual. I kinda like how you are always able to objectively analyze situations and see the key facts within that make people do their personal progress. Thanks for that!
madame-rachelle
commented
3 years ago You're welcome, but it was nothing too spectacular - I don't know what he's thinking or feeling but I can say I've been in similar shoes before. Hitting high profile members of the community like that is never an easy decision, and I've done it a few times in the past, even recently actually. It takes its toll on you emotionally, and like I said I have no idea how he thinks or feels but I can only imagine the toll that he could be feeling right now too. There's a lot to weigh and the outcome is shitty no matter what you decide. And it's never possible to 100% please everyone either way, either.
Tormentor667
commented
3 years ago What makes me angry the most is the reason for the ban. Saying that I was making fun of Marisa has absolutely no basis and it makes me look like a „transgenderphobic“ and that’s simply not true. I am a tolerant person and I absolutely do not care about the sexual orentation or gender of a person - everyone is free to do and decide and live a life in peace. Banning me for such a reason is just not fair, it isn’t my philosophy and my attitude.
madame-rachelle
commented
3 years ago Yeah, I understand completely.
Gothic-HP
commented
3 years ago Sorry for being Off Topic here, but since the Realm667 is down, probably related to this incident, can I ask you to at let us have access to the Repository files in case you decide to cloe down your website, please?
Dynamo128
commented
3 years ago I am going to say this to you guys purely in your own interest, but you should probably know that, regarding this:
Google "BoA". Google "BoA controversy"...see if you can find any.
This whole thing is currently being talked about on twitter and it's only a matter of time before game journalists potentially pick up on it. Even though I disagree with your positions, I still feel the need to warn you of the possible consequences, because I don't think anyone here deserves a public scolding on that level.
You people are still in time to genuinely apologize for what you did and change your ways and remove the offensive content. If not, I fear that this is not going to be a good look, and nobody is going to gain any benefit from it. Just bring back R667, announce that the problems are going to be solved, and do not just pretend the problem doesn't exist or is just a witch hunt or a small vocal amount of people when literally almost everyone in the community disagreed with how this was conducted. Just show that you are genuine, and all will be forgiven, I'm sure of it.
This is for your own good, I have no horse in this race. I genuinely hope you will listen.
AFADoomer
commented
3 years ago We need to do a 3.1 (3.0.1?) interim release to take care of the most volatile issues.
Because of a few people from a totally toxic community stormraging because they have personal issues with me? Has anyone yet read this kind of feedback outside Doomworld? ModDB? YouTube? Wolf3D?
I really don’t want to bend the knee, it doesn’t feel right. We took care of a lot of issues and 3.1 will improve this - but a 3.0.1 just because of what is happening on Doomworld doesn’t stand in relation.
The skill level name was fixed over a month ago, and the nude/torture graphics more recently, but there was no bugfix or minor version release. Now this blew up, and instead of us having acknowledged and promptly fixed emerging issues while continuing to refine and update the mod, we look like we ignored it... or at best had no urgency to release a fix. So now, the new complaints about Holocaust-related content (which I fully expected to see earlier) are just stacking on top of the older ones, and since we didn't immediately fix/remove the initial issues, we now have no standing to be able to explain away the things that we don't want to change.
I don't agree with the anti-Torm brigade comments on Doomworld - nor with the public banning of only you, and not the pot-stirrers who turned their critiques into direct personal attacks. Plus, there's a particular sad irony in people reacting like this on a forum for a game that was supremely controversial for its gore and violence when it was released... But this needed to be handled more delicately.
Even if all we do is take the 3.0 build and clean up the extra files in the package, change the skill setting name, delete a few sprites/textures, and maybe (and I only say 'maybe' because the character in the game has existed for over 6 years) rename Barkeeper Randi to something ridiculous to make sure no one confuses him with Marisa, that would take care of a lot of the problems.
TheConcernedModder
commented
3 years ago First of all I'd like to say that I like your mod despite my few issues with how combat is handled, like the roll giving damage reduction or something of that sort or the angle of combat rolls being really stupid sometimes (rolling into your face etc.) or the low stamina bar. However those are tiny issues compared to what you're facing right now. I'd like to say a few things on that.
This whole thing is currently being talked about on twitter and it's only a matter of time before game journalists potentially pick up on it. Even though I disagree with your positions, I still feel the need to warn you of the possible consequences, because I don't think anyone here deserves a public scolding on that level.
Cancel culture at its finest. I think this mod is art, and censoring an art form is also a bad thing. I'm not talking about nudity crap, I find those to be petty arguments when you had things like Duke Nukem or Shadow Warrior running around. The unused things can go for sure, whatever. The concentration camp level is actually pretty well done. It gives you that sense of despair and I died numerous times trying to find the best way to be unnoticable. So no, I think altering those in any way would ruin the quality and affection went into this. People should really not care about stupid game journalists or twitter, many a game suffered from that bullshit and most of them weren't even backed properly.
You people are still in time to genuinely apologize for what you did and change your ways and remove the offensive content. If not, I fear that this is not going to be a good look, and nobody is going to gain any benefit from it. Just bring back R667, announce that the problems are going to be solved, and do not just pretend the problem doesn't exist or is just a witch hunt or a small vocal amount of people when literally almost everyone in the community disagreed with how this was conducted. Just show that you are genuine, and all will be forgiven, I'm sure of it.
I don't think R667 should be back. Why would he keep spending money to keep that website when all others have done is be ungrateful and not know how to seperate the art from the artist? You can see the latter is especially true if you take a look at doomworld. People don't deserve that website and it's a fact. Also no, not LITERALLY EVERYONE disagrees with how things are conducted. Those who agree with the way things are would be silenced by moderation. I know plenty of people who fear bans and won't speak their opinion there. The mob mentality there is running amok and its a big problem nobody is tackling, and they won't.
tl;dr, fix the unused asset stuff, skill name (which I didn't have a problem with but again people are too sensitive), the Randi Heit situation and you should be good to go honestly.
EDIT: Final note here, but greatest of artwork is also the most polarizing. Make of that what you will.
Dynamo128
commented
3 years ago With a dog whistle nickname like that, your troll post already wouldn't be worth reading, since it's just a textbook case of freeze peach defender that was completely uncalled for. The problem here is that you completely ignored what I said originally.
doomjedi and tormentor667 have pointed out how there is no large scale controversy on the web involving BoA, meaning they are obviously concerned and on the look out for it
I pointed out how such a controversy is brewing, and it is in their interest (since again, they have stated they are on the look out for) to avoid it.
And now you come in with ThisIsFine.jpg, encouraging them to be unrepentant besides fixing a few things.
Get lost, we don't care about your nonsense about cancel culture or polarizing artwork or other concern trolling like that.
Let me preface this by saying that while I act only for myself and am expressing my own views of certain opinions that were expressed about this mod on Doomworld. I happen to agree at least partially with some of the concerns that were raised.
The two posts that are relevant in question (that I have drawn quotes from, particularly) are here: