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Faction balance discussion #1676

Closed kelno closed 4 years ago

kelno commented 4 years ago

Here is our first draft: Website article link

We're open to changes and opinions. You can use this thread to tell us what you think, what you would want do see added/removed, or what could be improved!

Pizzle93 commented 4 years ago

FYI Warmane had the following alliance perks: Free Apprentice Riding and Expert Riding skills +50% reputation gain on kill of targets that provide reputation (1.5x) +50% experience gain (7.5x) +50% honor gain (1.5x)

It was still not enough, however you guys also have ally Seal of Blood. If still not enough, free flying would also help. However, it is worth noting that the above was implemented after release so the effect is likely to be lessened. Also they were temporary bonuses, so the effect again was lessened.

zulink1 commented 4 years ago

Make stoneform 2 min cd, give dwarf 5 mace skills

give gnomes 5 dagger skills + 5 axe skill

give bloodelf 5 sword skills

give trolls 5 dagger + 5 mace skill and make troll racial always give 15% haste

Give night elf a new racial that work both in pve/pvp could be 4% haste always?? give undead 3% Armor Pen and nerf wotf to only last 2 sec

networm555 commented 4 years ago

buffing night elves somehow is a good idea. Coolest lore class but utterly useless min max wise. Give elf priests Symbol of Hope? And increase racial dodge rating to +3% from +1%? Buff shadow resist a bit more? Those changes can sway some people. It adds some serious RNG for pvp and utility for pve. Also would recommend remove fear ward from horde priests. Leave fear ward to all alliance priest classes to avoid dwarfing. I think it will be sufficient combined with changes you have already done. Lets be realistic. There is nothing we can do to challenge power of horde racial's without mirroring them. All we can do now is buff alliance racial's bit harder. And there still be not enough because people would still be playing undead's or orc's. At least those changes i have listed can give some people, who wanted to play alliance for a change some serious reason to finally roll.

bloodynine428 commented 4 years ago

Move Devouring Plague from UD priests to alliance. OR, as DP as an alliance ability breaks immersion: tune the Starshards ability of NE priests to shadow dmg (call it Moonshards or whatever) and let it scale properly with shadow spell power and debuffs. So alliance get a serious shadow priest race as well.

And yes overall i think we can all agree NE has the worst general racials of all races. They could use some love, idd maybe buff dodge chance with 1 or 2%.

Varanak commented 4 years ago

After reading these posts and getting a small survey of people's views on what kind of buffs to alliance they think are appropriate without being too custom that could potentially sour players interest in playing this server. I will try to elaborate on potentially viable options, that have been discussed so far, with varying degrees of divisiveness to hopefully be able to better move forward on this topic and remain focused.

Nearly all the proposed changes in this thread are related to pvp balance, as horde simply has better racials in pvp scenarios, and for many of the people in this thread, is a deciding factor for choosing horde, but this fact is statingly overblown because an arena team who lost to an undead rogue did not lose solely to wotf. A loss is amounted to a lot more than a single 2 min cd except for the very pinnacle of pvp engagements that for 99% of teams never even comes into play because there is still a lot more they could improve on that could have turned the fight in their favour. Giving alliance players horde racials or buffing alliance racials, whether or not a team will admit it after losing, largely is not going to change whether an alliance or horde team wins in pvp, and ultimately motivate a player to choose alliance over horde. Large custom changes to alliance racials is appearingly highly divisive as horde vs alliance is a fundamental theme and removing the uniqueness and status quo disrupts the spirit of world of warcraft for many players, as faction asymmetry is a large part of the game.

If the primary motivation for players to choose horde over alliance is pvp oriented than what will motivate these pvp orientated horde players to play alliance is making the pvp grinds that we have all done many times less painful, such as 50% increased honor rates being commonly suggested, in addition to alliance's faster queues, will sway some of these horde players to roll alliance because these players don't want to sit in a queue all day when they could have already been in the bg as an alliance player. So players will have to choose whether they want a slight upperhand over alliance players with horde racials or actually be able to play the game and be rewarded with higher honor rates for playing alliance. Rewarding what pvp orientated horde players already want to do and being able to pvp more often and increase their rewards by doing so will surely change some of these players minds to roll alliance.

It is also important to keep in mind that many players also don't solely choose a faction based on pvp incentives, but for some a better player experience such as a larger community, making guild recruiting easier, heroics faster to fill etc. We can see examples of improving player experience in the currently proposed faction balance changes such as 10% more rep, shared party quest loot and free 60% mount which are great QoL improvements that incentivize playing with friends while easing rep and leveling grinds all enhancing the player experience slightly, which will in turn sway some players and in turn entire guilds to role alliance over horde. Capitalizing on faction incentives geared towards these people will greatly improve faction balance. Ideas discussed in this thread such as going further than just a free 60% mount, but also a free 100% mount some even suggesting a free 60% flyer would aid in these players choosing alliance over horde.

As always a very simple addition to faction balance is allowing for a free one way non-reversible horde to alliance character transfer, as seen in previous tbc servers has been a beneficial and successful feature for helping improve faction balance long term.

In closure, faction balance will not be decided by changing the minds of pvp orientated players, but rather by changing the minds of the guilds these players will be in. Like it or not many of these guilds primary focus is pve and focusing only on pvp balance changes will have a very limited effect on them rolling alliance. If the faction balance changes can capitalize on small improvements to player experience for alliance players, like making alliance ret paladins viable with SoB, and what has already been proposed above, such as free mount/increased honor rates etc, and be able to influence a guild's decision in rolling alliance will surely have a much larger impact on the longevity of the server and faction balance moving forward. Keeping in mind that players joining months from now will want to pick the faction where they can get up and running and catch up as fast as possible. For many of these players coming late, alliance will be a favourable choice with these additions of player experience QoL improvements. Alliance racial and related changes will have little bearance on these players' decision to play alliance, so instead faction balance efforts should focus on appealing to the most players to more effectively tackle alliance population issues by improving their experience ingame to actually want to play alliance more than horde for a measly horde racial.

tobbe628 commented 4 years ago

Ridicolous to change the endgame around Faction-balance.

Buff the races instead.

Night Elf Example. Buff Quickness to give additional 1-30 Agility Depending on the level.

Gnomes Expansive Mind to 8% Intellect

Let people play what they want. If 80% wants to play Horde, let em. Punishing players for their choices is a quick way of destroying your new server at launch.

zulink1 commented 4 years ago

Ridicolous to change the endgame around Faction-balance.

Buff the races instead.

Night Elf Example. Buff Quickness to give additional 1-30 Agility Depending on the level.

Gnomes Expansive Mind to 8% Intellect

Let people play what they want. If 80% wants to play Horde, let em. Punishing players for their choices is a quick way of destroying your new server at launch.

Dont think you should buff gnome casters more, 5% int is quite fair but I like ur elf take, maybe let it be All stats is 1 to 20 from lvl 1 to 70

Nihil48 commented 4 years ago

Was so happy for new server... and not x1 - was hoped for fast lvling & enjoy raiding + more players ofc. But with all that faction balance !@#$ u start making I'll better wait Stormspire server even with all their bad (for me) decisions too. Because it's not WOW anymore, it's some alliance-licking trash FUN server (btw, now I playing an ally on Netherwing). People play horde not because of racials. Just they come to fantasy world not for being the same stupid human they are in real =\
If u rly think it's all because races - just make everyone ability to choose which set of race abilities they will have. And all. No other changes. But then u will see that real reason not here.

Journeyman Riding cost is 600g... u rly think it will not change economy?? I already see that ALL farm-twinks will be alliance side even for horde players. 50% honor?? Is it balance for u? I even can't see arguments.. it's so not logical I can't even find logic to disprove it. Wanna increased honor for any cost? Well, make it at least based on % that one side will be overpopulated ( and there will be more ally with all that changes lol)

The only rly good and reasonable change is for paladins. As well as shared/increased drop rates are always good too (ofc if not dramatically increased) After all... Sure many players will switch side if u implement all of this, but also many (and maybe even more) players will not play here at all (as me, for example) because they dont wanna play with cheats (u offering cheat-like changes for now). so..

If u rly think it's all because races - just make everyone ability to choose which set of race abilities they will have. And all. No other changes. But then u will see that real reason not here.

Pizzle93 commented 4 years ago

None of the things you mentioned above are a reason not to play this server in the long term, i.e. they are not end game affecting changes, which I believe is what devs wanted to avoid. Be happy that it will make the server healthier with proper balance.

Ironjudgment commented 4 years ago

Hi, first I would like to thank the endless team for opportunities to test the server and provide feedback. So, now’s the time for the meaty bit.

I would like to propose to you a small change to the current faction balance. It would be tremendously beneficial that both factions have a feature of grouped shared quest item drops.

I strongly feel that there are many people who have played TBC for the nth time and would love this feature in the Horde side simply because levelling with friends is much more enjoyable with shared quest items drops and encourages people to play together.

I understand that it’s a feature that is supposed to draw players to the Alliance but after looking at the already proposed changes I feel that the Alliance already has a huge boost (650g free for riding, increased quest items drops, two PvP items for the price of one, rep boost).

Therefore, I am strongly advocating of implementing this feature server wide so everyone can benefit from playing with friends on equal terms instead of punishing half the server.

I welcome comments on this from the rest of the community :)

Naturalek commented 4 years ago

Me as alliance player is OK with that changes, but i would swap that 100% ground riding for discovered fly paths. One way portal to SW from Darnassus would be nice too. Please don't ruin the economy with this bull**** free riding. Maybe make 280% cost half or sth. This is NOT any kind of advantage unless AH is crossfaction. This would only benefit ALTerminators abusing tailoring and alch cooldowns. For balancing, i would make horde racial somewhat unreliable, like engineering items. Just give it a chance to fail - 5%, maybe less. And turn GCD? 🥇 Another thing in my mind is to make Fear Ward as it was prenerf. No ward for horde 💯

h0rz commented 4 years ago

Background: I myself would never ever play alliance, even if you would get instant 70 and full S1 and T4 along with 10k cash, Netherwing Drake or even Warglaives, I just dislike every aspect of alliance faction from starting zones and questing hubs down to their cities, environments, narrative and races (yes I tried, always quitted very soon) and I would also never pick my race because of any ability or bonus or whatsoever, I play what I feel playing, which is Horde or don't. I would also say that almost all players I played WoW with over the last decade did not choose the faction or race due to their abilites, so this is only catering to eliminating the PvE competition for the first months and for every rep- and gold-based content release there is to come.

For me and my friends, this changes are killing our entire motivation as you cannot compete with the speed when it really matters for us - at launch. Alliance will just be continously ahead when its the most challenging and fun time for almost every focussed player who still wants to play TBC in 2020, which is the fresh race and the race after every content release.

The one thing you should not mess with is the time people have to spend for the same goal only because they have different taste, this is very discouraging as nothing will make up for the difference in wealth and level/PvE progression speed which emerges with these changes. Therefore I strongly dislike them;

Gold is a very vital part of TBC, that should be known to everyone, you don't need to pay anything except skill training fees and epic flying (e.g. alliance druid), you have three level advantages considering the increased quest item drop chance and both free mounts, clear the content for pre BiS a lot faster because its build on rep, which equals more time for making additional gold which can be invested in world drops, profession items, hardcore consumable use and so forth. Also imagine buying/farming Aldor/Scryer for Great Inscription, Unidentified Plant parts / weapons turn-in, Thrallmar/honor hold capture with the extra buff you can buy from vendor, rep-wise gated content such as dailies when they release (Skettis, Orgi'la Netherwing, Kara/MH ring slots, BT vendor; shadow resistance gear, trinkets, SWP; Alchemy Stones/Epic gem recipes..) It just gives a huge progression advantage until everything is done and therefore not very thrilling anymore. I did not do the math, but maybe devs did ? Could it possibly be that alliance will be able to get Shadow resistance gear a full ID earlier than horde if the raid only consists of humans ? What about Karazhan and MH ring slots ?

For PvP. nuff said. Alliance plays 12hrs for the same amount of honor points Horde needs 18hrs for. Who cares about your WotF when you have 200 less resilience for weeks to come ? Oh sure, just play thrice as much, farm until S2.. What about PvP twinks/alts ?

Even after only rough approximation it seems to be amounting to hilarious differences in days of /played through the whole progression which alliance can invest in generating gold, pushing alts for class stacking/PvP variety or whatever.

Just my two cents, but for me this really is GG - I do realize that Horde just gets the "normal" game version except for the death of the ret pal but the thing is that you only get a piece of the cake if 90% of alliance players have no clue how to beat the game.

I am sorry for not having a recommendation for the issue even after playing on almost every private server there was but I haven't seen a system that actually worked and also did not exclude one side from hardcore progression.

rikkisix commented 4 years ago

This is a good change, because it turns what we know of BC on its head never has there been a BC server that had favor alliance because on Real BC in blizzard servers. Many horde people here who won't roll are a minority at best and zerg guilds. This will force horde to be more laid back and casual. Many more Alliance will have zerg / Neet guild type guilds now massively helping the faction balance. People upset by these changes most likely won't stick around for the long haul anyway, better to get rid of them sooner then later.

One thing to note though is if Alliance numbers do start to overwhelm horde (Which is almost Statistically impossible. ) You may want to consider nerfing or removing some of the bonus's. Again though horde have never been overwhelmed on a BC server all top guilds are horde, if this changes that. It's for the better by far.

h0rz commented 4 years ago

This will force horde to be more laid back and casual.

Not exactly true, it forces every ambitious Horde player to double their effort instead of being casual, it rather caters to being casual and still effective on Alliance, which is a difference.

People upset by these changes most likely won't stick around for the long haul anyway, better to get rid of them sooner then later.

Wrong. Despite the fact that this is indeed a facist argument to kill the critics of the wheelchair you obviously find very attractive, there are just people who simply do not care for BG queue times or AH prices as you can play and farm the content (PvE/Raids, Arena) while having 100% players belonging to the same faction. The only thing people in my personal experience ever REALLY complained about concerning faction imbalance is BG queue (not talking about smuggish realms with 90/10 ratio, they surely have had other problems in the first place) and slight disadvantages concerning market density (which you could just farm for yourself, so it still remains mainly BG queue).

I've also never seen any thriving server where you couldn't find a competitive raiding guild on alliance whilst the content was still uncleared because, guess what, alliance as well as horde players for the most part do play their respective faction because they want to play it, even so they could have other racials or QoL and so forth when rolling the other. And believe it or not, me and my core grp even needed to switch to alliance once during SWP progression on Warmane Outland because there simply was no single highend Horde guild left with free raiding slots in their roster, it still remains a double-etched sword no matter how you put it. Another example is that the guilds I used to play with and know of usually stack up 10+ Shamans and lots of Boltbots or other utility for BT/SWP progress, which is a lot easier if you save 15 days /played and tons of gold through the course of the first 6 months.

Therefore the changes are (potentially) heavily influencing overall progress competition for the sake of BGs; not in the long term when everyone is BiS competing for some ranking board on the website, but when it matters for most of PvE players, which is on launch and upcoming content releases. There is nothing thrilling or prestigeous in being able to beat a kill time set with pre BiS gear in Karazhan when you finally have T6 equipped considering the content is known and done numerous times since 2007.

Nevertheless I would very much appreciate the math behind the bonus stacking with the regular mechanics in order to just see how much lifetime/runs/IDs/Daily repetition you will potentially save. If you cannot really compete in PvE because you always need a full ID more (as bonusses might be stacking additively or even multiplicatively on top of each other like the spellpower and ruin coefficient for shadow bolt) for unlocking high potential or mandatory items such as ring slots, epic gems or SR gear for Mother, this could really turn out to be a huge deal for the raiding scene considering the plans for buffing the content to counter 2.4.3 effects as well. I am not really complaining as I know my way without being wheelchaired, but nobody will benefit if this leads to a lot of ambitious players waiting for the next project. I mean lots of people also won't join X is reserved grps even if they do not need X, often times it is a matter of principle rather than can I still stomp BGs with 5mins queue when I finally have my glaives, I think there is no benefit in having a 1.5k pop realm which is closer to 50/50 as it ever were rather than having a 5-10k pop realm that is 60/40 or 65/35 with no changes to the game progression. During official classic development, you saw real evidence for a lot of potential players who just wouldn't play at all if QoL would be emphasized.

JLictorCru commented 4 years ago

I don't think the ideal solution to the faction imbalance question would be to alter any horde racials. First, it will cause resentment of staunch Horde players and they will simply go elsewhere when given the chance to do so. That means a population decline in the future when these are made available. I am someone who always plays Alliance, never felt right playing a Horde character, but you don't want a server which is 70-30 in favor of Alliance instead of it being the other way around. While the QoL buffs means I can save some time and money, the difference will be temporary and not a long term solution and the competitive edge will likely not last. Horde players for certain have a leg up in both pve and pvp because of it, but I think the solution is to buff alliance ones up to that level to make the game more interesting in that regard. I wouldn't give the BE paladins vengeance or Alliance paladins seal of blood, I think that erodes lore too much and is too small a change to mean much. Quest item drops should be shared for both factions. As for leveling the field in pve and pvp for Alliance, I think it would be best to simply buff some otherwise very situational racials. Here's my proposition: Humans - Make the +5 expertise with swords and maces back into 5 weapon skill. Weapon skill bonus was huge in vanilla for alliance melee dps. That ought to close the gap Horde have advantage with for racials with trolls and orcs. Perception is highly situational, Useful against rogues and druids and only when you know they are there, otherwise they get the drop on you without you even using it. Maybe have the active duration buff also add a small expertise buff and small spell pen buff for the 20 seconds? Dwarves - The find treasure was always a meme and worthless. Keep it, but if you can do it client side, give a marginal increase chance to find uncommon and up items. If the chance to find an 'epic' item is for instance 0.001%, make it 0.0015% for dwarves. A little something within flavor of the race. For stoneform, make its effect break and make immune from things like disorient effects. A wotf, but for scattershot, gouge and dragon's breath in addition to removing bleeds, diseases and poisons. Keep gun expertise the +5 in weapon skill. Night elf - Let shadowmeld be usable in combat and not break on dots. Make quickness a scaling agi buff instead, so you get more than dodge out of it, but not enough for a full 1% dodge at 70. Gnome - Escape artist ought to remain a 0.5 second cast, but make it so it cannot be resisted and doesn't share gd with trinket. Draenei - Gift scales with AP or spellpower/healing That's my two cents. Perhaps that would help Alliance be more competitive in higher level min-max play and keep up with horde numbers.

Itsjimmybb commented 4 years ago

I don't think the ideal solution to the faction imbalance question would be to alter any horde racials. First, it will cause resentment of staunch Horde players and they will simply go elsewhere when given the chance to do so. That means a population decline in the future when these are made available. I am someone who always plays Alliance, never felt right playing a Horde character, but you don't want a server which is 70-30 in favor of Alliance instead of it being the other way around. While the QoL buffs means I can save some time and money, the difference will be temporary and not a long term solution and the competitive edge will likely not last. Horde players for certain have a leg up in both pve and pvp because of it, but I think the solution is to buff alliance ones up to that level to make the game more interesting in that regard. I wouldn't give the BE paladins vengeance or Alliance paladins seal of blood, I think that erodes lore too much and is too small a change to mean much. Quest item drops should be shared for both factions. As for leveling the field in pve and pvp for Alliance, I think it would be best to simply buff some otherwise very situational racials. Here's my proposition: Humans - Make the +5 expertise with swords and maces back into 5 weapon skill. Weapon skill bonus was huge in vanilla for alliance melee dps. That ought to close the gap Horde have advantage with for racials with trolls and orcs. Perception is highly situational, Useful against rogues and druids and only when you know they are there, otherwise they get the drop on you without you even using it. Maybe have the active duration buff also add a small expertise buff and small spell pen buff for the 20 seconds? Dwarves - The find treasure was always a meme and worthless. Keep it, but if you can do it client side, give a marginal increase chance to find uncommon and up items. If the chance to find an 'epic' item is for instance 0.001%, make it 0.0015% for dwarves. A little something within flavor of the race. For stoneform, make its effect break and make immune from things like disorient effects. A wotf, but for scattershot, gouge and dragon's breath in addition to removing bleeds, diseases and poisons. Keep gun expertise the +5 in weapon skill. Night elf - Let shadowmeld be usable in combat and not break on dots. Make quickness a scaling agi buff instead, so you get more than dodge out of it, but not enough for a full 1% dodge at 70. Gnome - Escape artist ought to remain a 0.5 second cast, but make it so it cannot be resisted and doesn't share gd with trinket. Draenei - Gift scales with AP or spellpower/healing That's my two cents. Perhaps that would help Alliance be more competitive in higher level min-max play and keep up with horde numbers.

+1 for shadowmeld being used in CBT

Lupe4js commented 4 years ago

Long time solution:

Now fight me you loot whores !

About racials; alliance need PvE buffs

Buddyb419 commented 4 years ago

I have been talking quite extensively about the pros and cons of rolling ally at launch. The exp and rep and mount bonuses enticing, but leveling at the rates that we will be leveling with all the perks, profession leveling is completely out of the picture, especially for gathering/tailoring/skinning. The quantities of nodes/herbs/cloth that we will be getting will not be viable to get max professions as we level.

alexbassinot commented 4 years ago

Hi. I was wondering what is the root-cause the Alliance perks are aiming to mitigate?

Atrax3 commented 4 years ago

"Alliance players will gain 50% extra honor." It's shot in the foot. Alliance gain more honor in bgs -> they gear faster -> they play less bg -> disbalance growth.

If You could manage "free horde->alliance faction change" players gona balance factions alone. Cause noone likes to wait in queue. Great example is warmane tbc - there was huge disbalance, then they created "free horde ->alliance faction change" and population was close to 50/50. But they deleted free faction change as they wanted more money. So horde queue for bg last even 20 mins and server died.

PS: Whats the reason to disable 5v5? This is TBC - some class specs can hit higher rating only in 5v5 as they are created for this (e.g. ele , destro)

DaedalusMachina007 commented 4 years ago

Too little, too late. Link: https://endless.gg/news/21 Archive: https://archive.vn/U2f80

Anyone who wanted to roll Horde on your server has already done so. The server itself (and the Discord) is such a mess that if the server is up for a solid 8 hours straight that will be a damn achievement. Guilds have trouble getting runs set up because there's no telling if the server will even be available. Now you want to release PvP season sets and think that PvPers will tolerate random DCs and disconnects every single day? Pfft.

Elf, please. >_>

I called it quite early-on and I stated that 'if the changes go on as-is that it would cause massive issues and the server would barely last 6 months'. So far the significant Alliance tilt has happened as I expected with the heavy pro-Alliance bias by the server admins/devs.

Any developer, be it for a private server or any other game project, should have the capability of looking at all sides of a game and putting their personal feelings for any one specific faction/class aside.

If things change within the next month or so then I may give the server a go, but I'm not holding my breath. I don't even feel that it would be worth the time to bother with this anymore. What a shame :(

Hanzemon commented 4 years ago

What I would do is let players choose what their racials would be. If you're an orc you can choose to have war stopm and scape artist, human could have berserking and axe spec, etc. That way the only differences between races would be the models and factions. So players could choose race based more on what they like aesthetically as well as from an RP viewpoint.

Another thing that would be pushing the limits a little bit wpuld be letting all races be all classes, I always wanted a Gnome hunter in the first 3 games but it never came out until much later.

Imo that would be the only way to balance factions REALLY. In the other hand some racials are much more desirable than others and definitely if you make all racials skills that can be learned up to a max of 2 per character plus 1 passive let's say, you will have most players taking orc racial + will of the forsaken + escape artist or something like that.

So balancing the racials themselves would be the next step would you take this direction.

DaedalusMachina007 commented 4 years ago

@Hanzemon You're talking about a 'funserver' or 'custom server' at that point; I don't believe many others playing on the server really want custom or self-selected racials. Each and every racial is tied to the race it comes from. Same goes for 'every race can be every class' you would have to add in class-specific vendors and NPCs in areas that didn't have them and again at that point it would be a custom server.

People here want to play TBC not some custom server. The changes already done to the server have tilted balance so far out of whack that the staff are hoping things self-correct over time rather than trying to fix the damage already done.

It would be nicer if the staff were willing to do a 'do-over' and just use a login queue to balance factions rather than custom faction-specific changes. But that would be too much to ask apparently.

mayday2013 commented 4 years ago

2 words: crossfaction battlegrounds.

Otherwise, PvP is dead in a month.

Hanzemon commented 4 years ago

@DaedalusMachina007 To it's already a "fun" and "custom server" with their INSANE "faction balance" to the alliance. Also, removing the 1% spell miss chance and the insane buff to Warriors charge and their change to Taunts. This is a fun server, you might as well do it the best you can.

DaedalusMachina007 commented 4 years ago

@Hanzemon With the way you put it, I'm inclined to believe you with all the random custom changes they've done on the server already and continue to plan to do for later on.

What a shame :(

gforghieri commented 4 years ago

@kelno There is a proven solution for faction balancing which worked well for over 10 years on the Blizzlike 1x rate Excalibur TBC server which was arguably one of the best if not the best TBC private server.

Make the whole game completely cross-faction.

The most important/Must have:

Could have:

DaedalusMachina007 commented 4 years ago

@gforghieri

We've been over this and cross-faction is not a thing on THIS particular TBC server. The devs aren't here to recreate Excalibur. Honestly I'm shocked that Excalibur even bothered to do a cross-faction server which would completely destroy/negate the whole faction-war aspect at the very core of PvP in WoW.

If you want cross-faction try asking that other funserver that recently launched. They've got instant level 58 already lmao.

Kerimalpalt commented 4 years ago

I think now the BGs are empty and ques are terribly long, a solution must arrive within a week or so the balance we be gone and horde will be empty. Currently, there is no PVP on this server and it is affecting this server long term capacity, longevity is harmed with every day. Bring faction transfer, give horde a boost in rep farm and honor and its done.

SabreValkyrn commented 4 years ago

Faction balance feedback

Player Experience

As a Horde Guild, here are some experiences Eternal Gamers has had. While these may seem extreme, that doesn't lessen how frequently they actually occur.

I cannot speak for all Horde, but I expect many have had similar experiences. If I was not part of a Horde guild, I would have quit Endless by now, I know of many people in EG who feel the same, simply log off to avoid the griefing and work on a lower level toon, or are thinking about quitting the server entirely.

This is not a threat, but a fact of the player experience, "bUt RaGeQuItTeRs ArE bAbIeS". Sure, but when the user experience is so bad people are not playing, that's a business and logistical problem, not a "well it's a pvp server" problem.

While in and of itself part of TBC, someone's chosen class also impacts their ability to deal with the current Alliance dominated world PVP and ganking situation. Many classes have no way to avoid or escape confrontation, so these problems are even more pronounced for them and their Endless experience even further lessened.

This is not just a Horde vs Alliance population, but all the perks given to Alliance further enable this griefing behavior. These bonuses essentially give Alliance free reign and incentizes fly-by-ganking or corpse camp anytime they want.

Tipping the scales

It's hard to feel like Tipping the scales would impact scales much.

Faction change

Alliance to Horde faction change could potentially help population balance, but do not touch many of the underlying issues.

Until there's penalties for the griefing and corpse camping, faction populations makes little difference.

It will also likely be difficult to do fair faction changes and avoid abusive scenarios like benefiting from the Alliance friendlier farming, reputation, and honor then changing to Horde for raiding.

Improvement ideas

Here are some things, to me, that could be done to improve the actual problems and not player count for each side. I have bolded items I think are the most important. These changes need made soon, I believe the Horde population will take an even sharper population decline if the current state of affairs exists much longer.

This could quickly turn into an arms race with faction perks, so I believe it's important to simplify changes or keep them to a minimum. The TBC experience shouldn't be skewed by Alliance vs Horde PvP incentives, nor should this problem turn into a series of overcompensations. I believe the following ideas could help improve quality-of-life with relatively little TBC experience impact.

Guards

Factions

Mounts

Quests

Farming

Rules

gforghieri commented 4 years ago

You will get into an endless loop of customization and tweaking to try to balance the factions. The long term proven solution is CROSS-FACTION, see below.

The only downside is what @DaedalusMachina007 stated, which is that you somewhat lose the sense of faction vs faction feeling. But not completely since you can only group up if the other accepts the invite.

But why do you think Excalibur did it? They thought it through and it worked brilliantly. The fact that this server is already trying to balance it with any other way than cross-faction, actually makes it more of a FUN customized server. Think about it. +50% honor boost for a faction? Really?

So what is more important, a long term well functioning server without faction balancing issues, bg queues, etc.

or

a broken server with custom mods/tweaks where you are in BG queues forever but you can say that for example, I'm willing to wait 30min-1 hour in BG queue to preserve the feeling of faction vs faction.

@kelno There is a proven solution for faction balancing which worked well for over 10 years on the Blizzlike 1x rate Excalibur TBC server which was arguably one of the best if not the best TBC private server.

Make the whole game completely cross-faction.

The most important/Must have:

Could have:

Iormungand21 commented 4 years ago

I was heavily considering rolling on this server. However the faction "balance" attempts are a huge turn off. And until something is better I wouldn't touch it with a 10 foot pole. How someone could think the extreme benefits given to alliance wouldn't result in what it did is baffling.

yolohse commented 4 years ago

Perhaps that because this isn't a thread for horde to whine. It is a post to come with contructive suggestions for faction balance which you clearly don't understand the difference between.

DaedalusMachina007 commented 4 years ago

At this point it might not hurt to just open up a 2nd server (no transfers permitted) and just no bonuses to either faction. See what happens. I still feel a bit perturbed that the devs stubbornly insisted on severely over-compensating for Alliance PvP racials and then being surprised when Alliance dominate a server so heavily that they risk losing Horde entirely.

I predicted 6 months but at this rate it might be much sooner. Lol.

sharya commented 4 years ago

So after the ridiculous amount of benefits the alliance players got the "scales have been tipped" already. Tell me why are you still giving away free 100% riding to alliance players? It's already frustrating enough to go around crowded areas where there are mostly alli players and as a fresh horde char you stand no chance to outrun them. The alliance have been outnumbering the horde for weeks now and yet there are still no changes in the benefits they get. Honestly I couldn't care less about the bonus rep or honor they're getting, but this fast riding thing is just unfair no matter how you view it.

yolohse commented 4 years ago

Sharya. The current faction balance is 53/47 in favor of the alliance, so obviously the bonuses that are in place right now have made the factions equal. If you remove bonuses from alliance, less people will roll alliance and the balance til tip. 2-3 weeks ago the balance was 60/40 in favor of alliance so it is already happening.

And to all of the other horde idiots, who whined in this forum before launch and the first weeks about the server being unplayable because they were ruining the factions and it would be 100% ally. Take a look at the balance now please and eat a big bowl of “I told you so”. The extreme measures were necessary and they worked very well!

DaedalusMachina007 commented 4 years ago

Sharya. The current faction balance is 53/47 in favor of the alliance, so obviously the bonuses that are in place right now have made the factions equal. If you remove bonuses from alliance, less people will roll alliance and the balance til tip. 2-3 weeks ago the balance was 60/40 in favor of alliance so it is already happening.

And to all of the other horde idiots, who whined in this forum before launch and the first weeks about the server being unplayable because they were ruining the factions and it would be 100% ally. Take a look at the balance now please and eat a big bowl of “I told you so”. The extreme measures were necessary and they worked very well!

You're a complete jackass. There is no 'I told you so'. It is Alliance players taking full advantage of the free faction transfers by rolling Alliance and then faction-transferring to Horde to dominate both PvE and PvP sides. That's the only reason the 'scales are tipping' towards a semi-equilibrium.

The devs knee-jerked over Horde PvP racials and they've been continuing with foot-in-mouth syndrome on this server since launch. The extreme measures were NOT necessary and were NEVER necessary. A simple login queue would've accomplished the same objective without severely skewing the faction economy and world population balance for weeks.

This was done in January of this year and it is now April. It has been 3 entire months (minus a few days if you want to be pedantic) and the server is still a buggy semi-broken mostly-stock server minus the absurd pro-Alliance advantages.

Disappointment for the server is something I expected, but the sheer fanatical mouth-foaming morons that come out of the woodwork to defend these terrible decisions are what makes me laugh. Fine then, have your server and rejoice as it fades into obscurity once the freshtards wander off towards the next shiny thing.

yolohse commented 4 years ago

The fact that you call this a buggy semi-broken server just shows that you are everything that is wrong with the P-server community. No matter what server is released you will hate it, so can't you just not play on the server?

DaedalusMachina007 commented 4 years ago

The fact that you call this a buggy semi-broken server just shows that you are everything that is wrong with the P-server community. No matter what server is released you will hate it, so can't you just not play on the server?

You call people of an entire faction 'idiots' for stating verifiable facts about the poor state of the server. There are already poorly-made junk nearly-stock servers like the 'Paymane' ones. But they get absurd numbers because people want to play with their friends.

Also I've met many people like you over the years in a variety of games. Each and every time, people will say 'if you dont like it then leave' and then months later (or often weeks later) said game/server is shut down due to lack of a playerbase. Fucking idiots like YOU are the ones that kill a community with your gatekeeping bullshit.

'Dont you dare say anything negative about my favorite X game/server/thing because then you are a TROLL and blah blah blah blah and JUST LEAVE already'

Piss the fuck off with that shit. Nobody cares. This isn't a server JUST for you and your tiny circle of friends to play for a while and then get bored and play the next shiny thing. This is a server for everyone. Deal with it.

If the server is no longer a 'buggy semi-broken' mess then please do let me know. I'd love to hop back in and give it a good spin :)

yolohse commented 4 years ago

I'm not calling an entire faction oly people whining that they dont get another server with 70% hordes. How am I destroying a server by playing on it and not talking bad about it in all the forums i see detering other to play it? I expect bugs and dcs, you know why, because i pay nothing to play. I play for free on a server run by volunteers, but instead of acknowledgeing that you find every mistake and bitch about that instead of focusing on all the stuff they are doing great.

I think where we differ is that my number one prio is to play on a server with a lot of people rather than perfect scripts and no one to share it with because faction balance killed the server

elche8 commented 4 years ago

Hello

Would it be possible to change the server rules because this is really annoying

the alliance is always higher in number in bg. So they earn 90% of the bg. In addition to that, they earn 50% more honor? Seriously?

they also gain 25% more reputation, and have the 100% mount free ???

Ok it's cool to have done this if there were few players on the alliance side, but now it no longer needs to be, it's even be stupid.

Or give them the 280% free, it will be even cooler for them ....

So boring to pvp in horde side right now ... I just up 70 with some friend, and it's just unplayable for us atm ...

elche8 commented 4 years ago

do something, to many bg are like this : https://www.zupimages.net/viewer.php?id=20/16/50rc.png

elche8 commented 4 years ago

well i see "visit this page and voice your opinions" is very usefull

So, nice rules, all alli guys are stuff with > 10k life and we have to loose 2000 bg to buy 2 items. Nice work

elche8 commented 4 years ago

and today ? oh wait ....

https://zupimages.net/up/20/17/rc6j.png

elche8 commented 4 years ago

seriously again today. ALL ALLI PLAYERS ARE FULL PVP GEARED WITH YOUR STUPID FUCKIN RULES

yourbestm8 commented 4 years ago

my story; Hit 70 after powering through the game, Loved all of it. The Areas, the old school feels of hellfire, all of it. it Rocks and thank you for making this server.

I used to Hardcore PVE 5 nights a week for years so I burnt myself out of it, just wish to just PVP and have a good time. But their is a problem, I've done something like 30 or so Battlegrounds and won midbie 6/7 of them trying to get honour for any forum of gear. Alliance are always geared way past my entire team and its obvious they always have a upper hand.

then I'm surprised to see that Alliance are getting 50% Extra honour, LMAO. Im going to take a wild stab what side the Devs are on.... Not giving Horde extra honour considering you wish to see that side increase in numbers ( that's why im guessing you gave them X6 Exp) is a very bad move. Making more horde hit 70 just to go "lol...Good luck" in Battlegrounds... You wont give a shit and I dont blame you but I'll catch you later. I've unistalled and not going to support how you have crippled a faction when you wish to see a higher volume of them. L8erz, GL though to your server. all the best.

DanTheMan900 commented 4 years ago

I'm afraid "yourbestm8" that's pretty much it in a nut shell, I'm sorry to see a WoW player leave the game be it Retail, Classic or Privet. but don't worry if you feel its just yourself getting frustrated.

My guild has played in all aspects of WoW, enjoying all of them. We loved classic but felt blizzard had lost its soul to greed and didn't feel the same. So we all made the call to try this out.

At first we also loved privet, the multiplayer to XP was a good call to help boost numbers up on the Horde side if it needed it. But end game PVP is a very big problem. When you hit 70 your given two paths, Grind for a good while to slowly get gear you wont be melted in strait away, Or get ripped apart in Battlegrounds...

We knew strait away about the honor bonus to alliance but we couldn't understand why that call was a good idea for this length of time... when extra honor days we got given in retail was only for a short period for good reason, to not un balance the gear management. If one side got max'ed out faster than the other, win rates would plummet and you'd find a lot of unhappy customers and your server would just be black listed for new players wanted to be horde.

You are the Devs and I'd hope you know that unbalance you've caused when it comes to keeping the players on the same gear steps when obtaining currency. and hope you fix it soon.

But when we played battleground we won 1 out of 20 and that isn't a joke....That's not because we suck, its not because we are unlucky AF , or we don't play as a team....ITS POOR CURRENCY BALANCING, its that black and white... You have caused a upshot of horde players but given them a handicap at the finishing line. If alliance where topping the numbers even by 1% or 2% that is still not a good enough reason to dish out 50% extra honor for weeks on end....

We wish you all the best horde, the server is grate but the Devs have set you up to fail I'm afraid. Like pigs to slaughter....I'd recommend another privet server. Perhaps the Wrath one that isn't pay to win.

Good luck all!

yolohse commented 4 years ago

I have now been in 10 WSG to get 10 marks. Horde won ALL of them 3-0 so please stop whining about BG's just because you lost 2 in a row and blaming the devs.

DanTheMan900 commented 4 years ago

What a response lmao A high % of BG's on average are being lost and your argument is a personal win streak that you can not confirm or deny.

If you used that big brain you clearly have you'd see I didn't ramp and rave about how a majority of games we entered we lost over and over, I go on about the core issues of balancing and the importance of moderation of sed control measure's.

But no no no, your right. You won some BGS so their for everyone moaning in the forums, the countless battlegrounds I see and global/general are wrong.

You know there is a big wide world of Warcraft out here? try pulling your head out of the Dev's ass's and taking a look around to see what's going on ;)

elche8 commented 4 years ago

I have now been in 10 WSG to get 10 marks. Horde won ALL of them 3-0 so please stop whining about BG's just because you lost 2 in a row and blaming the devs.

You re just a joke dude. You dont think seriously what you said about whining i Hope... You re just lucky. Most of the BG are loose when it start because they start 5v10, 7v15 AND allis are full gears. If you dont premade you will loose 90% of them. Unfortunatly premade doesnt mind skilled people but a least they play together.