Scheduled calls for FLEDGE

[michaelkleber]

We are holding (mostly) weekly phone calls to discuss and resolve the details of the FLEDGE proposal.

The next meeting is planned for Wednesday Oct 2, 2024 at 11am Boston (= 8am California = 5pm Paris time = 3pm UTC, during winter months).

Calls will take place on Google Meet:

• Video call link: https://meet.google.com/djm-iupb-sdz
• Or dial: ‪(US) +1 401-589-5448‬ PIN: ‪327 541 034‬#
• More phone numbers: https://tel.meet/djm-iupb-sdz?pin=1430654960091
• Calendar entry: Join the Google Group https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/g/protected-audience-api-meetings/ . (Even though this page says "You don't have permission to access this content", but if you log into a Google account then you will see a "Join group" button at the top of the page.)

Agenda proposals, attendance records, notes will happen in this Google Doc: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Kr0hpfQ_Q1LX1aN00D5k_09yV_a7WE9RSn69nS3nZho/edit

For a speaker queue, we will use the Google Meet "Raise My Hand" feature.

If you want to participate in the call, please make sure you join the WICG: https://www.w3.org/community/wicg/

Other related meetings:

1. People interested in this discussion may also be interested in the complementary discussion of the Trusted Servers that the browser interacts with during the flow of this API. See https://github.com/WICG/protected-auction-services-discussion/issues/27 for logistics of that meeting, which is scheduled to take place immediately following this meeting, around half of the weeks.
2. Microsoft Edge folks are also working on a heavily-overlapping proposal. They intend to meet during this same hour every second Thursday. See https://github.com/WICG/privacy-preserving-ads/issues/50 for logistics.

[BasileLeparmentier]

Hello Michael,

If I am not wrong the dates are all next week, I see that Wednesday is first in number of attendant, and Monday second.

Can you please tell us which one it is going to be?

Best, Basile

[michaelkleber]

Yes indeed — the Doodle poll's most popular time is Wednesday at 11am Boston / 5pm Paris / 8am California, approved by 34/39 voters. We'll start with that on this coming Wed Feb 3.

(The second-place hour in the poll, the same time slot on Mondays, now makes me nervous, since it is the slot that the Conversion Measurement WICG calls are also using. They are currently on an every-other-week schedule, but there was just a comment in last week's call about maybe adjusting the frequency. So I'm glad to avoid that risk of future conflict.)

[TheMaskMaker]

Hello Michael,

I am new to the WICG and was hoping for guidance on how to access the meetings. I have been poking around the group page and discourse but could not find it and am hoping you can help me. Thanks in advance!

[thezedwards]

Assuming it's not done already, I'd like to request that the calls be recorded or full transcripts provided -- these FLEDGE details and discussions about how to fix side channels prior to deployment may need considerable external dialog and ideally people could catch up to previous discussions if they are not engaged yet.

Recordings are ideal, transcripts second best.

@michaelkleber - can ya'll consider creating a FLoC calendar/resource page, outside of Github, with links to 100% of the proposals, calendars for discussions like FLEDGE and a centralized resource to ongoing issues and side channels being debated? It feels like tons of important topics or convos may get duplicated because people didn't find a corresponding github issue, and it would be helpful if someone at google would link to 100% of the 3rd party feedback/articles/videos and provide clarifications/corrections when needed. At this point, the public almost needs a "FLoC Fact Check" where rumors and confusion can be clarified. Not a War Room - a fact check resource. This work to audit new data supply chain proposals for side channels is hard enough without well-intentioned people getting details wrong, or some FloC opponents purposefully confusing details -- and without a place where an average person can "submit a rumor for response" to the Google team, I fear there will not only be tons of businesses who can't prepare themselves, but reporters / auditors / privacy advocates / gov officials will potentially put up road blocks for non-problems, while ignoring real side channels that need debates and potential trade offs.

[michaelkleber]

Call Details:

Calls will take place every other Wednesday, for one hour, beginning at at 4pm UTC = 11am Boston = 8am California = 5pm Paris time. The first call will be Wednesday Feb 3 2021.

The call will take place on Google Meet:

• Video call link: https://meet.google.com/djm-iupb-sdz
• Or dial: ‪(US) +1 401-589-5448‬ PIN: ‪327 541 034‬#
• More phone numbers: https://tel.meet/djm-iupb-sdz?pin=1430654960091

Attendance and notes will happen in this Google Doc: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Kr0hpfQ_Q1LX1aN00D5k_09yV_a7WE9RSn69nS3nZho/edit

For a speaker queue, we will use the Google Meet "Raise My Hand" feature.

[michaelkleber]

Hi @thezedwards: Details and discussions will surely need considerable external dialogue, as you say! But these phone calls will serve largely as a place to bring up these questions, or to call attention to them. The substantive discussions should all happen in individual GitHub issues. This should allow for the kind of after-the-fact catching up that you mention, and also for full participation in the work by people who can't join a meeting this particular hour.

This is the W3C standard, but I quite understand that it's not familiar to everyone. Thanks for pointing this out, and I will be sure to make it clear during the calls where the detailed work happens.

I will also bring up the question of recording. See here for a discussion of the W3C position on recording meetings.

For stuff about FLoC, could you please open an issue on the FLoC repo? This issue, and indeed this whole repo, is about FLEDGE and the extended TURTLEDOVE family of ideas, which are pretty separate from the FLoC work.

[thezedwards]

Thank you for those links @michaelkleber -

I've got concerns with the w3c position on recording meetings - I've commented on that thread and will continue to take this up on external channels.

These discussions are about massive changes to the Chromium platform -- used primarily by Microsoft and Google - and it seems like the discussions are being organized in Github and Google Docs (w3c uses a different note taking app typically) - the feedback is being organized in software respectively owned by the 2 entities tracking the proposals and feedback. I have concerns with ya'lls tracking vectors in these platforms, and I don't think it's appropriate for neither Google or Microsoft to have a centralized place on either of your websites linking to all the proposals and with details about how to get involved.

I feel strongly that this process is siloing feedback in dangerous ways for the market -- it takes a herculean effort to track down all the proposals and potentially all the links needed to parse concerns.

The Google/Microsoft teams should consider creating one simple support article on their respective websites - link to all your blog posts about this (posts like this @ https://blog.google/products/ads-commerce/2021-01-privacy-sandbox/ are great and filled with good links, but this isn't how normal google support articles are organized), link to all the proposals from google + criteo and everyone working on different angles - and explain how the W3c process works and why it was chosen for discussions. Ya'll could list all the tracking vectors for each proposal, all ongoing side channels that need debate -- a clean way to showcase concerns and non-google proposals *(with responses showing concerns). At some point, Google will need to clarify this process to the world and for regulators/elected officials (how it went down) -- and ya'll will likely need to create this resource at some point before the launch of any of these proposals -- my ask is that ya'll front load this, get all the links organized now - explain process + meeting opportunities - and help more folks engage in this process before most of the decisions are finalized.

FWIW, I'm also advocating for elected officials to hold hearings on the privacy sandbox proposals vs 3rd party cookies - and I hope that this important decision about the internet isn't made by just a handful of folks on a Microsoft-owned social network for developers.

Thanks for hearing the concerns and trying to think of any ways to organize all the details in an external page off-github -- while linking back to the proposals on github as-needed.

Sincerely, Zach

[michaelkleber]

Hi Zack: Perhaps what you're looking for is Chrome's Developer Relations site, where @samdutton has an article https://web.dev/digging-into-the-privacy-sandbox/ ? That was last updated in December, and FLEDGE is more recent than that, so not perfect, but I think it's a start.

[thezedwards]

Thanks, that is a good article I'd agree. I guess i'll put in "a vote" to update that one blog post and just put FLEDGE and ongoing new content in that one post. That's sorta the problem though - ya'll have a few good posts, that all link to good stuff - but none of them are 100% accurate and there isn't one where people can check back week after week for any new links/data/results/concerns etc.

cheers, zach

[michaelkleber]

Minutes from the Feb 3 meeting are posted here; much thanks to @jkarlin for scribing.

Next call is planned for Feb 17. See the top message in this issue for logistical details.

[michaelkleber]

Minutes from the Feb 17 meeting are posted here; much thanks to Brendan Riordan-Butterworth for scribing.

Next call is planned for March 3. See the top message in this issue for logistical details.

[michaelkleber]

Minutes from the March 3 meeting are posted here; much thanks to @JoelPM for scribing.

Next call is planned for March 17, though I will (per discussion this time) look into forking off a second call so that we can split the technical/privacy discussion from the business/go-to-market discussion.

[michaelkleber]

NOTE that the March 17 at will take place at 3pm UTC = 11am Boston = 8am California = 4pm Paris time.

This meeting is anchored to US time zones, so for Europeans it will be an hour early on March 17, due to Daylight Savings skew. (Heads up @BasileLeparmentier @lbdvt @plmrcy @jonasz)

[michaelkleber]

Minutes from the (short) March 31 meeting are posted here; much thanks to @BrendanIAB for scribing. Next call on April 14.

[michaelkleber]

For the April 14 call, I would like to discuss #132 "Restrictions on interest group JS processing power/memory usages" and #154 "Edge MPC". And more generally, I'd like us to discuss the type of computations needed for bidding and bid scoring.

The recent proposals of a Dovekey auction using secure 2PC and the MaCAW 2PC extension to PARAKEET are both relevant here: the MPC approach offers substantial wins in both privacy and utility, but only if the functions to be computed fall within the restrictions imposed by their computational model.

(Explicit heads up to @BasileLeparmentier @jonasz @pjl-google @gangwang-google @KeldaAnders, to be sure you see that I mentioned your assorted issues and proposals.)

[michaelkleber]

Added minutes from the 4/28 meeting here; next call 5/12.

[michaelkleber]

Minutes from the 5/12 meeting are posted here.

Next call will be on 5/26. Unfortunately it seems that I can only attend for half an hour on 5/26 — my apologies in advance. So the next meeting will be from 4pm to 4:30pm UTC, rather than the usual 4-5 duration.

[michaelkleber]

Minutes from 5/26 posted here, next call on June 9.

[michaelkleber]

Minutes for 6/23 posted here, next call July 7.

[michaelkleber]

Minutes for the past two meetings are posted: July 7 and July 21. Sorry for failing to link to the July 7 minutes earlier; all minutes are in this directory.

The next meeting will take place on August 4th, but I will be out on vacation. My colleague @JensenPaul, manager for the FLEDGE implementation work, has offered to run it in my absence. Please be nice to him.

[michaelkleber]

Minutes for Aug 8, hosted by Paul, belatedly posted in the usual directory. Next call Aug 18, "tomorrow" if you're up late and in California and "later today" for attendees in the rest of the world.

[tyaeger]

Hi Michael, thanks for the updates and notes.

Would you be able to share if there is a github link or another way to learn more about the PARAKEET calls happening? You mentioned there is one a week from now and we're keen to understand their timing and testing.

Many thanks, Tamara

On Wed, Aug 18, 2021 at 1:29 AM Michael Kleber @.***> wrote:

Minutes for Aug 8, hosted by Paul, belatedly posted in the usual directory https://github.com/WICG/turtledove/tree/main/meetings. Next call Aug 18, "tomorrow" if you're up late and in California and "later today" for attendees in the rest of the world.

— You are receiving this because you are subscribed to this thread. Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub https://github.com/WICG/turtledove/issues/88#issuecomment-900823026, or unsubscribe https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/ATCKJXJIH3FQ55LF24JWXLLT5NAL5ANCNFSM4WPX2C5Q . Triage notifications on the go with GitHub Mobile for iOS https://apps.apple.com/app/apple-store/id1477376905?ct=notification-email&mt=8&pt=524675 or Android https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.github.android&utm_campaign=notification-email .

-- Tamara Yaeger Product Coordinator

[michaelkleber]

Hi @tyaeger, thanks for joining today.

PARAKEET calls are taking place during the same hour as FLEDGE calls but in the alternate weeks. The details, including the Microsoft Teams link to join, are in https://github.com/WICG/privacy-preserving-ads/issues/3.

And more generally, https://github.com/w3c/web-advertising/issues/104 is an attempt to maintain a list of all the various discussions relevant to that group's topics of interest.

[michaelkleber]

Minutes from 8/18 posted at https://github.com/WICG/turtledove/blob/main/meetings/2021-08-18-FLEDGE-call-minutes.md. Thanks to @joelpm for scribing.

[appascoe]

I'd like to add https://github.com/WICG/turtledove/issues/225 to the agenda for 9/27, if possible.

[michaelkleber]

Sure, added (in the "[Suggest agenda items here]" section of the notes doc).

Minutes from 9/1 and 9/15 are also available in the usual GitHub directory.

[michaelkleber]

Minutes from 9/27 posted here, up more quickly than usual for the benefit of any interested IAB folks who were not in the room.

If you see something that needs to be edited and didn't get a chance to do so in the notes doc because I posted more quickly than usual, feel free to send a pull request.

[michaelkleber]

Minutes from 10/13 posted here.

We are not meeting Wednesday Oct 27, since the W3C's TPAC conference will be happening then. Our next meeting will be Wednesday November 10 at 11am Boston = 8am California = 5pm Paris time (= 4pm UTC since clocks will have changed by then).

(Our every-other-week alternation conveniently skips the week of Nov 1, when US and EU differ on daylight savings time.)

[michaelkleber]

Minutes are posted for Nov 10, Nov 24, and Dec 8. The latest minutes can be found in this directory even if I forget to specifically link to them from this issue.

We are not meeting on Wednesday December 22, since many people are out of office until the new year. Meetings resume January 5, 2022.

[michaelkleber]

Jan 5 minutes posted here.

Next meeting was scheduled for today, Jan 19. But at T minus 1 hour, there are no topics suggested in the doc and no recent issues to discuss. Therefore the Jan 19 meeting is CANCELLED, and we will meet again on Feb 2.

[michaelkleber]

Notes for the meetings on Feb 2, Feb 16, and Mar 2 are all in the usual directory.

TIME ZONE NOTE: Our next meeting, on March 16, is during the period where the US has changed its clocks for the summer, but the EU has not yet. So that meeting will take place at 11am US Eastern time as usual, but 4pm Paris time rather than the normal 5pm. Meetings from March 30 on will return to 11am US Eastern = 5pm Paris time.

[michaelkleber]

Hi folks: Our Aug 3 meeting had no proposed agenda items, and we disbanded after a 10-minute chat (notes in the usual directory).

For further summer meetings (Aug 17 and Aug 31), we will only meet if there are any agenda items suggested beforehand. As always, items can be suggested by adding them to the Google Doc that we use for notes, here.

Also, the week of September 12 is the W3C's annual TPAC meeting, in Vancouver. We expect to hold an in-person discussion there about FLEDGE and PARAKEET. (Also open to remote participants; TPAC registration required; see https://www.w3.org/2022/09/TPAC/ for details.)

[michaelkleber]

Update for Aug 17: We do have some suggested issues on the agenda, so we will hold a FLEDGE call today. See y'all in an hour and a half.

[michaelkleber]

For Aug 31 we again do have a nonempty agenda, so there will be a FLEDGE call as usual tomorrow. See you there.

Two weeks later (Sept 14) we will not hold a FLEDGE call, since that will be during the W3C's annual TPAC meeting. See https://github.com/WICG/turtledove/issues/344 for our planned TPAC joint session with the PARAKEET folks.

Our usual biweekly calls will resume on Sept 28.

[michaelkleber]

No call today (Oct 26), as mentioned on the call two weeks ago. Next call on Nov 9.

[michaelkleber]

No call today (Nov 23) due to US Thanksgiving. See you on Dec 7.

[JensenPaul]

Cancelling today's (Dec 21) call due to absence of agenda items. See you next year on Jan 4th.

[michaelkleber]

Hello folks: Apologies but due to unavoidable schedule conflicts, we need to cancel the FLEDGE that would have happened on Jan 18. We will hold the next regular call two weeks after that, on Wed Feb 1.

[michaelkleber]

Hello NON-US FLEDGE folks! Please note that this week's meeting, on Wednesday March 15, will take place at 11am US East Coast time as usual, but that the US has now changed clocks for the summer, while Europe has not. So for this week only, the FLEDGE call will be an hour earlier than usual in Europe, e.g. at 4pm Paris time.

By our subsequent call on March 29, Europe clocks will change also, and we will be back to our usual offset.

[michaelkleber]

Hi folks: No agenda items have been suggested for today (May 24th), so the FLEDGE call in an hour and a half is cancelled.

Our next call will be in two weeks on June 7, assuming we have agenda item suggestions.

[thegreatfatzby]

Is it OK to add agenda items from other Privacy Sandbox related repos, in particular thinking about Bidding and Auction Services questions, or should this agenda only include issues in this particular repo and w/r/t Fledge/Protected Audience?

[michaelkleber]

Other stuff about the Protected Audience API, like the Bidding & Auction services, are appropriate here! For B&A in particular, it's preferable to put them on the agenda in advance, so we can find a time when the right people can join the call.

The Privacy Sandbox work on measurement has its own recurring call, with logistics in https://github.com/WICG/attribution-reporting-api/issues/80, as does the Topics API, https://github.com/patcg-individual-drafts/topics/issues/115.

[shivanigithub]

To add to @michaelkleber 's response above, fenced frames related topics are also welcome to be added as agenda items.

[thegreatfatzby]

I am still getting used to how to find information here, but curious when the the next meeting for this will be, at the time of writing it still says June 7 2023

[michaelkleber]

Oops sorry about that, updated. The linked notes doc has the right date, apologies for when I fail to propagate it back to this Issue.

[lbdvt]

Hi, will there be a session at TPAC 2023 on Protected Audience, and if so, on what day?

[michaelkleber]

@lbdvt Yes! I've asked the WICG chairs for time (https://github.com/WICG/admin/issues/181), but they haven't scheduled things yet. We should end up on either Monday or Tuesday.

[thegreatfatzby]

Hey @michaelkleber sorry if I'm completely missing something, the Google doc link is still for the July 19th call...I do want to add some stuff to discuss :) ... is there a "current link" or something I should know to look at.

[michaelkleber]

Oops sorry about that! Was OOO for that meeting, and forgot I need to go back and do the post-processing :-). Notes from last time are now posted in the usual place, and the doc is ready for suggestions for the next agenda.

[thegreatfatzby]

Post processing is the best :)