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Spring 2023 "F2F" #978

Open Westbrook opened 1 year ago

Westbrook commented 1 year ago

It's been quite a while now, but it seems like it would be a good idea for us to gather and discuss some of the really exciting proposals and specs that have been coming up or coming together in support of new functionality in the world of web components.

In concert with the WCCG, I'd like to propose we work toward making something happen the first half of April 2023. For out part, having the discussion is the most important part of the event, but we'd be interested in your thoughts on live vs virtual vs hybrid sessions as well.

Happy to take suggestions on Agenda content below:

I've created this poll to gather the availability of interested parties through the month of April: https://www.when2meet.com/?18702051-ib5Wi

As we'll be virtual there is room for spreading the conversation out over more than one day, but please try to mark availabilities of at least 90 minutes each so we can find sizable chunks of time to get as deep into the various APIs we'd like to target as possible.

justinfagnani commented 1 year ago

I hope we're all back from the holiday, new years, and layoff season and can look forward to our spring schedules. For the most productive meeting, I think we'd love to see implementors like @mfreed7 @annevk @rniwa @emilio and more there. Is there any interest?

annevk commented 1 year ago

I would be happy to attend. If it's virtual it'd have to accommodate UTC+1 for me. I'm interested in:

I would love it if as homework we could all look through the existing Custom Elements and Shadow DOM issues (see links at https://github.com/WICG/webcomponents#readme) and nominate one-or-two for discussion at the F2F to see if we can make some progress on those as well.

justinfagnani commented 1 year ago

@annevk glad your interested in attending. I agree with those two points my self. One more that's top of mind for me:

And for homework, I know we've lightly tried to do some of this before, and at some points we've had nice presentations prepared, and tighter agendas worked out. I wonder if it would be helpful to have a pre-meeting a few weeks before to go through issues and find the issues to nominate and estimate their time boxes?

annevk commented 1 year ago

I'd be happy to make some time for a pre-meeting.

leobalter commented 1 year ago

Consider how every feature interacts with declarative shadow DOM, especially a11y

I'm biased. This should be the main topic and yet it connects well to the points from @annevk.

Completion for Declarative Shadow DOM seems like the main pain point because it's too close, but not there yet. As mentioned, a11y capabilities are part of this discussion.

I'm looking forward to discussing it with this group.

annevk commented 1 year ago

cc @smaug----

mfreed7 commented 1 year ago

I'm happy to attend, as long as it's virtual. Travel is tougher than it used to be.

+1 to pre-work including topics to discuss. I'd add:

@xiaochengh

bkardell commented 1 year ago

👋 I am interested and will attend, perhaps one or more others from Igalia may as well depending on a few things

Westbrook commented 1 year ago

For topics, we might find the Web Components Community Groups report from 2022 a good starting point.

When presenting this content at TPAC we focused primarily on some APIs needed for browser parity, that have happily made some really great progress as far as implementation. FACE (Form-Associated Custom Elements), Constructable Style Sheets, CSS Modules, and Imperative slots have all seem massive progress in the intervening months, there may no longer be further discussion needed in these areas....

As part of the report, the community group saw a great need for closure/alignment on specifications for Cross-root Aria, Scoped Registries, and Declarative Shadow DOM. DSD looks like it's ready to go, the team at WebKit has been putting some great work into it and it's on by default in their Tech Preview 162. Scoped Registries and Cross-root Aria have more work required. Speaking not as the WCCG chair, but for Adobe, my employer, these two specs are of high interest and import to products/features that are shipping to users today and new products/features that will be rolling out in the coming years, if that's of any use in putting extra fuel on the fire.

Beyond those, the various API covered in the WCCG report are all sourced from actual consumers of the web components APIs, so it may be useful to find time in a F2F to work towards closing the various "open questions" sections there in. In particular, if there are "dissenting opinions" there in that can be represented by specific implementors, it would be great to ensure that we've made time before/during/after the session to ensure those positions are fully captured and shared with the broader community.

sashafirsov commented 1 year ago

Will be glad to be in-person. Subjects of interest are

Would provide the PoCs on the concepts and business needs/use cases. -s

On Mon, Jan 23, 2023 at 12:26 PM Justin Fagnani @.***> wrote:

I hope we're all back from the holiday, new years, and layoff season and can look forward to our spring schedules. For the most productive meeting, I think we'd love to see implementors like @mfreed7 https://github.com/mfreed7 @annevk https://github.com/annevk @rniwa https://github.com/rniwa @emilio https://github.com/emilio and more there. Is there any interest?

— Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub https://github.com/WICG/webcomponents/issues/978#issuecomment-1400934766, or unsubscribe https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AA6LG2P7M2EFK3X77J6WOQLWT3SPJANCNFSM6AAAAAASUTRLKY . You are receiving this because you are subscribed to this thread.Message ID: @.***>

smaug---- commented 1 year ago

I could try to attend, I think I'd prefer remote meeting. One possible topic would be selection + shadow DOM, https://github.com/mfreed7/shadow-dom-selection That is a good proposal, but there might be still issues in some related APIs, like how copy-paste should work etc.

nolanlawson commented 1 year ago

Happy to attend, interested in Declarative Shadow DOM and all a11y issues as well. Beyond cross-root ARIA, there is also the intersection of ElementInternals and ARIAMixin which is quite interesting: https://github.com/whatwg/html/issues/8544#issuecomment-1326103455

thescientist13 commented 1 year ago

Would be up for attending as well, but might have to be remote depending on location of the F2F.

zcorpan commented 1 year ago

Interested

rniwa commented 1 year ago

Meeting in April sounds good to me. Is it gong to be in-person? If so, where are we thinking?

emilio commented 1 year ago

I'm interested as well, but would likely prefer to attend virtually.

justinfagnani commented 1 year ago

Given the number of people who want to attend only virtually, I wonder if we want to hold a pure virtual meeting so that we can optimize just for that experience and don't even worry about finding a location.

Unless, some people really want to see each other face-to-face and maybe they happen to be close to each other?

caridy commented 1 year ago

I'm interested as well, but would likely prefer to attend virtually.

Westbrook commented 1 year ago

Seems like the majority people are interested in attending virtually, so while it can be interesting working out a hybrid event, let's meet virtually this time and help have everyone on the same footing as we discuss the important topics for which we'll be gathering.

I've created this poll to gather the availability of interested parties through the month of April: https://www.when2meet.com/?18702051-ib5Wi

As we'll be virtual there is room for spreading the conversation out over more than one day, but please try to mark availabilities of at least 90 minutes each so we can find sizable chunks of time to get as deep into the various APIs we'd like to target as possible.

Does it make sense to try and find at least find 3-4 times we can get a quorum together for 90 or more minutes that we can gather and dig in?

Westbrook commented 1 year ago

We've got 10 responses to https://www.when2meet.com/?18702051-ib5Wi for the about 15 or so respondents to this issue to date. If you or someone you know wants to take part in these sessions, please get them to share times they are available, or they'll be stuck working what's best for the group. It would be great if we could wrap scheduling up by the 1st of March. As of right now the days that look the best are:

  1. Monday, April 17th, 12pm - 4pm ET
  2. Tuesday, April 18th, 12pm - 4pm ET
  3. Wednesday, April 12th, 1pm - 4pm ET
  4. Thursday, April 13th, 1pm - 4pm ET
  5. Monday, April 3rd, 12pm - 2pm ET
  6. Tuesday, April 4th, 12pm - 2pm ET

How are we feeling on multiple sessions to ensure we have enough time for everything?

nolanlawson commented 1 year ago

Tuesday, April 16th, 12pm - 4pm ET

@Westbrook April 16th is a Sunday. Did you mean Tuesday, April 18th?

rniwa commented 1 year ago

Perhaps we can have sessions on Monday, April 17th and Thursday, April 20th or Friday, April 21st? That would allow everyone to attend at least one of the sessions.

Westbrook commented 1 year ago

@Westbrook April 16th is a Sunday. Did you mean Tuesday, April 18th?

Sorry updated.

rniwa commented 1 year ago

I suggest

Westbrook commented 1 year ago

@rniwa agreed!

I'm not sure if there's a more official calendar than that of the Web Components CG, so I've added those events there:

I added the handful of people to the event on this thread who's contact info I already have, and would be pleased to do the same with the rest of you. The meetings are in a Google Calendar, so they always get associated to a Meet video call, happy to try to set up something else if that would preferable, but please let me know ASAP if some effort needs to be put into finding an alternate call strategy.

Preparation

This leaves us with about 4 weeks until the sessions, and a lot of great topics to discuss. Here's a list of all the points from above (call me out if I've missed any):

We could also draw further discussion from the WCCG' 2022 report.

It would be most productive if we could get some "topic owners" (I've listed roughly who originally proposed the topic above) that could at least introduce the subject for discussion or possibly even gather some people for a pre-F2F-F2F/email threads so as to grease the skids of recent development and possible decisions. Thoughts?

annevk commented 1 year ago

Thanks @Westbrook! I have a couple other topics if there's interest:

keithamus commented 1 year ago

I am definitely interested in DOM parts API!

xiaochengh commented 1 year ago

scoped custom element registries @mfreed7

I'll be talking about this topic, as I'm prototyping it in Blink.

Westbrook commented 1 year ago

@annevk does "Mutation callbacks for node tree changes to children" relate to the issues in "Children changed callback" or is there other background you could share on that subject?

@xiaochengh based on your work so far, are specific questions remaining to dig into or if there's a different shape this part of the sessions should take.

Do people have thoughts on how much time we should roughly appoint to each topic, based on open questions, existing proposals, etc.? Seems like it would be useful to start shaping a schedule for the two days, and confirming if any pre-meetings would be needed to ensure discussions as a group are productive to moving these specs forward.

justinfagnani commented 1 year ago

I think some of the topics, especially DOM Parts and Declarative Custom Elements, are quite large. Should we do some agenda setting within those topics to try to use the time we allot to them?

justinfagnani commented 1 year ago

I would propose one more topic too:

rniwa commented 1 year ago

Alright, here's a proposal for two day agenda. Let me know if you'd want some topics to be moved around.

Day1: Monday, April 17th 12pm to 4pm ET

Day 2: Thursday, April 20th 12pm to 4pm ET

xiaochengh commented 1 year ago

@xiaochengh based on your work so far, are specific questions remaining to dig into or if there's a different shape this part of the sessions should take.

The basic shape should remain the same.

I'd like to bring up #969, which is currently blocking me from landing a minimally usable prototype. If time allows, I would also like to see if we can resolve any of the older blockers #907, #914, #923

nolanlawson commented 1 year ago

To me, Cross-Root ARIA, ARIA Mixin, and ElementInternals are all kind of munged together. I would prefer to address all 3 topics at once.

rniwa commented 1 year ago

@nolanlawson : You mean you want one time block for all 3?

nolanlawson commented 1 year ago

Sure, like maybe the first 3 sessions on Day 2 could all be related to this topic. E.g. we could start with a level-setting presentation about the current "state of the union" for solving both 1) cross-shadow ARIA references, and 2) default ARIA semantics for shadow hosts. I'd be happy to put together some slides on that.

Alternatively, if folks want to cover them separately, then I'm not opposed to that.

rniwa commented 1 year ago

Updated the agenda accordingly.

zcorpan commented 1 year ago

To help folks prepare, can the agenda items have links to relevant issues and explainers?

sashafirsov commented 1 year ago

@rniwa , I would create some stories on declarative template, declarative web application stack as part of requirements for DCE meanwhile, can you, please provide the link to DCE POC in Declarative Templating & Custom Elements ?

Or better to make the WICG tickets first? https://github.com/EPA-WG/custom-element/blob/main/README.md

clshortfuse commented 1 year ago

I would be interested in attending (virtual). It would be nice to put a face to people I've been seeing around the community for the past few months 👋, as well see what the general direction of WC.

My background is working on translating a BEM based framework to Web Components with just native code (no transcompile). It's probably a few months from production, but so far, I got mostly all the Material Design components + mini render framework at <65KB min-gzip in my current project. I feel like I've been in the trenches for the last few months so could provide some relevant feedback.

From a dev perspective, my points of interest are accessibility (ARIA), performance, and pains related to bottom-up construction of elements without using outside render frameworks.

sashafirsov commented 1 year ago

Functionally complete declarative templating #997 is WICG proposal and would be part of Declarative Custom Element presentation.

Westbrook commented 1 year ago

Reminder that we've got two session for this scheduled for the week after next, see proposed schedule here: https://github.com/WICG/webcomponents/issues/978#issuecomment-1471288572

Calendar info is I added the handful of people to the event on this thread who's contact info I already have, and would be pleased to do the same with the rest of you. The meetings are in a Google Calendar, so they always get associated to a Meet video call, happy to try to set up something else if that would preferable, but please let me know ASAP if some effort needs to be put into finding an alternate call strategy.:

I'm not sure if there's a more official calendar than that of the Web Components CG, so I've added those events there:

  • Monday, April 17th 12pm to 4pm ET (link)
  • Thursday, April 20th 12pm to 4pm ET (link)

Not many days left till we're all together, but if any in advance convos would be productive, please share them here so people can join in as they are available. See yall in a couple of weeks!

43081j commented 1 year ago

is it possible i could join this too? even if just to observe

i do a lot of oss work in the WC space, have crossed paths with a few of you already over the years. so its all super relevant to me. would love to take part and become more involved

michaelwarren1106 commented 1 year ago

same. I'd love to be able to attend just to listen in

Westbrook commented 1 year ago

These meeting are currently on the Web Component Community Groups shared Google Calendar as public events, I'm not sure of a way for them not to be without paying for a Google Meet account. Does anyone have qualms against more developer/consumer attendees in the sessions?

Separately, while I currently own these events, due to a family emergency I will no longer be able to attend next week. Is there someone whom I could transfer ownership of these events to that will be in attendance both days and does mind "minding the door" to ensure that people are able to join. We'd not gotten all the way to a moderator/chair and/or note taker for the event, but it would be good to get some volunteers in this area, too. Possibly the same person, but by no means a requirement.

rictic commented 1 year ago

I would like to attend along with @justinfagnani , representing the web components team at Google.

justinfagnani commented 1 year ago

@Westbrook I can help mind the door.

I see the events have Google Meet meetings on them. If I create the meeting we get unlimited hours too.

We should probably get a list of potential note takers so we can rotate. Maybe we can make two comments here and people can 👍 if they can take notes on that day.

Re: chair. In the past we've sometimes had a W3C chair, like Chaals. I can't remember if we've kept that in more recent meetings. @annevk is there something specific we should do there?

justinfagnani commented 1 year ago

Who can help take notes on the 17th?

React with a 👍 if you can!

justinfagnani commented 1 year ago

Who can help take notes on the 20th?

React with a 👍 if you can!

mfreed7 commented 1 year ago

50min: DOM parts API. In particular focusing on these three things and building a v1 if there's rough agreement @rniwa:

  • APIs for creating parts.
  • { node, parts } = node.cloneWithParts({ deep, parts }) (note that this is generic).
  • A name that doesn't conflict with shadow parts. Perhaps node segments?

For the discussion of the DOM Parts API, some folks have been working on an augmented proposal that takes SSR into account:

https://github.com/tbondwilkinson/dom-parts#readme

(Also some open issues about this updated proposal.) Perhaps we could spend the 50 minutes discussing this general idea?