Rogue Wolf Thread

[CrowdfordBot]

shapechange: Thread for the discussion of rogue wolf (opinions and suggestions).

[CrowdfordBot]

shapechange: I'll start - I developed the "original" version of Rogue Wolf, which I think made it to a vote but didn't pass, which was more complex but also definitely more interesting than the current version (it had to attack each night post-N1 and turned solo if it attacked a town). Whilst this version absolutely wasn't perfect and I wouldn't propose it again, I've been fairly vocal about how much I've disliked the changes made since.

To expand:

1. This role in its current form is, quite frankly, boring.
2. In regular games (in that wolfpack will rarely if ever fail to kill), it will function almost exactly like an Assassin with a disguise and more bullets: and, though it has a disguise, it's usually fairly easy to tell whether a TK is legit or not as soon as it executes a kill.
3. In games with unusual lists that would feasibly affect Rogue Wolf, it fails to achieve its core purpose - being another strong TK option so that we don't just keep cycling between Priest, Assassin, and the very occasional CL.
4. The other core purpose of Rogue Wolf was to be a TK that's easier for wolves to claim, and (as elaborated upon above) it definitely doesn't fulfil this right now.
5. Rogue Wolf is also kind of hard to test effectively, as - this relates to point 4 - it functions best when people don't know if it's in the list or not.

So, to summarise - it doesn't work and it's not interesting.

In my opinion, this role needs either an extensive rework or just deleting (and we go back to the drawing board on new strong TKs).

[CrowdfordBot]

e_thsn: I mean there's a few other ideas I can come up with for strong TKs

[CrowdfordBot]

e_thsn: I like the uniqueness of how current RW works and it's lack of complexity

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e_thsn: and it has to balnce killing wolves and leaving some alive to give it more kills

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captain.luffy: i like the interactions with runner, priest, and cursed cit

[CrowdfordBot]

e_thsn: Also the point about assassin maybe begs that assassin is too generic

[CrowdfordBot]

e_thsn: also for point 4) and kinda partially point 1) I just think RW isn't too known yet

[CrowdfordBot]

shapechange:

I like the uniqueness of how current RW works and it's lack of complexity

the points i made above literally demonstrate it's not unique though

[CrowdfordBot]

e_thsn: The wolves didn't claim RW because they didn't want to be attacked by RW but wolves will claim assassin and priest but the same thing can happen

[CrowdfordBot]

shapechange:

also for point 4) and kinda partially point 1) I just think RW isn't too known yet

I don't really see how this is a response to either point - it's definitely not a response to point 1, and though with point 4 I get where you're coming from, it's not really responding to the point I made (which is that a regularly killing TK is basically impossible to fake, regardless of whether it's known or not).

[CrowdfordBot]

e_thsn: oh you mean faking the kills

[CrowdfordBot]

shapechange:

The wolves didn't claim RW because they didn't want to be attacked by RW but wolves will claim assassin and priest but the same thing can happen

Just because wolves claim them doesn't mean they're fakeable. RW is designed not just to be claimable, but to be maintained as a claim.

[CrowdfordBot]

shapechange: Or at least it was supposed to be.

[CrowdfordBot]

shapechange:

Also the point about assassin maybe begs that assassin is too generic

This is kind of a nonsense point? Assassin is supposed to be generic.

[CrowdfordBot]

e_thsn: yeah but we compare every TK to it

[CrowdfordBot]

shapechange: Yeah?

[CrowdfordBot]

e_thsn: I remember someone once said CL is assassin but with unlimited bulits and a group

[CrowdfordBot]

shapechange: Using a generic TK to see how differentiated other TK are from it is... well, I really don't see how it's a problem at all.

[CrowdfordBot]

e_thsn: I'm more confused on how to make a TK that wolves can easily maintain a fake of, the kills are always going to be unfakable

[CrowdfordBot]

shapechange:

i like the interactions with runner, priest, and cursed cit

Point one - we're highly unlikely to ever see RW in the same list as Priest. If we did, we'd probably be unlikely to see an interaction, due to other mentioned points.

Point two - the runner and cuck interactions are more interesting at least in theory, and are probably the only highlights of the role. So if there's only two things making it interesting, it needs a revamp.

[CrowdfordBot]

captain.luffy: yeah those are mostly the only things i like lol

[CrowdfordBot]

captain.luffy: well the condition for killing is nice ig

[CrowdfordBot]

e_thsn: I like that a smart pack can control a RW if they wanted, RW can't kill if they attack the runner claim

[CrowdfordBot]

shapechange:

I'm more confused on how to make a TK that wolves can easily maintain a fake of, the kills are always going to be unfakable

The key would probably be to have it potentially "fail" kills like Priest, I guess - but that assumes that we revamp the role. We could also just remove it, which was another option I suggested.

[CrowdfordBot]

e_thsn:

The key would probably be to have it potentially "fail" kills like Priest, I guess - but that assumes that we revamp the role. We could also just remove it, which was another option I suggested.

I meant for any role we make

[CrowdfordBot]

shapechange:

yeah those are mostly the only things i like lol

I mostly disagree here (points 2 and 3).

[CrowdfordBot]

captain.luffy: its cool in odd role lists like this one but like, that would be for os only games, and i assume we want this role to work in season games

[CrowdfordBot]

shapechange:

I meant for any role we make

Well, yeah, but I'm not saying that the next strong TK we make should be fakeable by wolves - I'm saying that RW was supposed to be, that it was the core aspect of its role, that most of its differentiating features are based on that aspect, and that it does not fulfil that aspect - making it, in essence, a bad role.

[CrowdfordBot]

e_thsn: ohhh ok yeah

[CrowdfordBot]

shapechange:

its cool in odd role lists like this one but like, that would be for os only games, and i assume we want this role to work in season games

Yeah, it only really works for OS games, and what's more it only really works for very specific OS games.

[CrowdfordBot]

e_thsn: we could make it a variant role in that case maybe

[CrowdfordBot]

shapechange: no

[CrowdfordBot]

shapechange: if it does not fulfil the core aspect of its role, it is a bad role

[CrowdfordBot]

e_thsn: fair

[CrowdfordBot]

shapechange: if it is a bad role, there is no point in keeping it around

[CrowdfordBot]

shapechange: variant roles are supposed to be roles that are too volatile to use regularly but still provide interesting, if chaotic, gameplay

[CrowdfordBot]

shapechange: RW very explicitly is neither interesting nor good

[CrowdfordBot]

captain.luffy: well lets say curse caster was variant, then priestess could be too by association

[CrowdfordBot]

captain.luffy: not that its that relevant

[CrowdfordBot]

shapechange: yeah, those would be fine variant roles

[CrowdfordBot]

e_thsn: for new strong TK I had a couple of ideas

1) Alchemist: has number of players/x poison tinctures each night can poison a player, they will be attacked/will die (maybe a non attacking TK would be interesting) the end of the next night, also has 1 antidote that can be used on a poisoned target at any time

[CrowdfordBot]

shapechange: i think we're actually considering making them variants

[CrowdfordBot]

captain.luffy:

not that its that relevant

its just an added criteria for variant

[CrowdfordBot]

shapechange:

for new strong TK I had a couple of ideas

1) Alchemist: has number of players/x poison tinctures each night can poison a player, they will be attacked/will die (maybe a non attacking TK would be interesting) the end of the next night, also has 1 antidote that can be used on a poisoned target at any time

should probably go in a new thread but i feel this has potential

[CrowdfordBot]

e_thsn: 2) Unnnamed but the concept is that it can attack the next night if it's last kill was on a wolfish player otherwise it has to break for a night (maybe werewolf hunter or smth)

[CrowdfordBot]

shapechange: that i like slightly less

[CrowdfordBot]

e_thsn: yeah alchemist is my fave of the 2

[CrowdfordBot]

shapechange: can spiral into getting no kills pretty easily: also, discourages targeting solos, which is a little bit nichey esp considering priest

[CrowdfordBot]

captain.luffy: i would call it apothecary but yes i like it

[CrowdfordBot]

shapechange: it's basically just a bit priesty (undesirable consequences if you don't kill a wolf)