reaper discussion s10g7

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WWR Sync: <@578133411110060033>

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captainluffy: I think the role was semi-successful, i saw people enjoyed it and had good things to say. though some people didnt realize the kill was immediate because of the old role, so there was some misunderstanding. I think the role should be rewritten a bit for clarity, There are also two suggestions i have towards improving it.

suggestion 1: so not having powers from both p and m category roles can make the role a bit disappointing sometimes, as I saw. so my suggestion for power roles is pretty basic. It's additional effect would be to disguise the target semi-permanently, similar to flute charmer and famine, though reaper would get the choice of the role type. This change is mostly inconsequential and does raise the complexity of the role slightly, but it makes the game dynamic of having reaper present more interesting and also makes it more fun to play

suggestion 2: . the team is a bit weak compared to its sk contemporaries. So this suggestion is if its meant to fill the niche of a sk role, though for a sp niche im not sure, this is just an idea so it could go either way, so id like some discussion on whats best for its balancing. an idea i have is wraith can turn one person sleepless each night, even before reaper dies. this doesnt increase the complexity of the team at all, while also buffing it, so the cons would only be that it might be too strong.

any other thoughts or ideas are welcome

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captainluffy: <@490180990237540352> how do u think reaper did balancing wise? was it an appropriate power level, or too weak/strong

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thekremblin: i do not think this game was very representative of a normal reaper play considering the player borderline gamethrew by being inactive

i think it was fine honestly, it just didnt have the opportunity to use a lot of its powers

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shapechange: yeah i don't think this game gives us any opportunity to analyse reaper

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shapechange: from what i did see, several players remarked that they thought it was pretty complex.

your first suggestion undoes one of the only major changes made to the role, increasing its complexity and making it significantly more powerful. your second suggestion effectively reverses the other major change (though it transfers the power to wraith) and is definitely way too strong.

i think that reaper is at an absolutely fine power level rn, it just did nothing this game. we shouldn't make balance changes that there's no proof of needing.

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captainluffy: wraith doesnt get reaper powers. it just turns 1 person sleepness each night

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captainluffy: but only after reaper dies

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captainluffy: if it was considered too weak, thats probably the best way to offset it without increasing complexity

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shapechange: I'm fully aware of that. I think you must have misinterpreted something I said

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captainluffy: yeah, i think its too weak if its trying to fill the sk niche, but if its for the sp niche its probably fine

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captainluffy: i guess its somewhere inbetween

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captainluffy: i dont think the first suggestion makes it more powerful in terms of making it win easier. but more powerful in terms of affecting the game state

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shapechange:

yeah, i think its too weak if its trying to fill the sk niche, but if its for the sp niche its probably fine

I'm not really sure what you're trying to say here? SK roles aren't supposed to be universally stronger than SP roles (in fact, all primaries are supposed to be of similar strength, as are all secondaries, etc). there's no "SK niche" or "SP niche" in the way you seem to be referring to. reaper might be slightly weaker than devil, because devil's the strongest solo, but it's definitely stronger than lone pyro (r+w is probably of a similar strength to double pyro), and almost certainly stronger than www.

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captainluffy: but i guess having the sleepless status be invisible actually offsets its weaknesses

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shapechange:

i dont think the first suggestion makes it more powerful in terms of making it win easier. but more powerful in terms of affecting the game state

i think it does definitely make it more powerful in terms of making it win more easily, though not a large increase. i think it definitely makes it much more wolf sided as a solo, and i think the complexity payoff is also pretty bad

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captainluffy: well i wouldnt say www fills an sk niche. but i meant like a pyro team, plague team, devil. having a wraith currently doesnt really make reaper much stronger, the same way an extra pyro would

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shapechange: bro i just said there's no such thing as an SK niche

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shapechange: i have no idea what you mean by that

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shapechange: do you literally just mean a solo who kills?

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captainluffy: like a solo that massively affects the game state non passively

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captainluffy: like pyro plague and devil

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shapechange: alright, three points here a) if that's what you meant then don't call that because it doesn't have anything to do with that b) i would also include vampire and horsemen in that group c) i can see why you don't think it fits that group but I'm not sure why it's a problem

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captainluffy: a) sorry not sure what name i would give it otherwise b) horseman i wouldnt say fit it to nearly the same extent, theyre closer to flute. like mild inconveniences but mostly passive until becoming threatening late game c) having a niche gives more reason to put it in role lists and makes it part of the conversation more, which i think is an improvement

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shapechange: a) one that's not obviously misleading b) you said have an impact on the game through their actions (not specifically "are constantly threatening", horsemen definitely do that - famine especially, as we saw last game, as well as death c) this is just a completely bogus point. yeah, reaper isn't as impactful as devil, it doesn't fit in the high impact solo niche, but that doesn't mean it has no niche at all. on the contrary, it means it fits in the low-radar niche, where flute is. it just has different applications from a rolelist perspective

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captainluffy: yeah i guess it works well as an alternative to flute in lists

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captainluffy: that kind of seems to be what it has going for it

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captainluffy: i think it needs a rephrased role desc for clarity though, at some point

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shapechange: i can take a look at it

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shapechange: maybe this evening maybe tomorrow

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mctsts: I agree it fits the traditional SP niche more than the traditional SK niche, which is completely fine

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mctsts: I think both suggestions from luffy are fine, but the first one does raise complexity which we want to avoid

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mctsts: I don't see an issue with the second one

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mctsts: It can be used to better balance the role, since reaper's power scales relative to the amount of deaths and not the amount of players - so in some bigger games the amount of deaths may scale acordingly while in others they won't, requiring additional power on nightmare team

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shapechange: I don't hate the latter, though I think it could prove too powerful - I mostly disliked it in combination with the first.

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mctsts: I think it would probably be a good option for balancing and we're unlikely to use Wraith a lot anyway as is

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mctsts: since its powerless

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shapechange: mhm

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shapechange: makes sense

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e_thsn: it means N1 nightmare won't be doing nothing too if we have them as a team

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captainluffy: do you want to do a vote for the wraith suggestion?

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shapechange: so we're looking at implementing suggestion 2 (give wraith the ability to turn people sleepless) from this thread

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captainluffy: yeah, is that acceptable?

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shapechange: i think so, but it's probably something that should be voted on

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shapechange: it's also been suggested in a different thread that we remove reaper's recruitment power on R/A death, and i don't feel this significantly weakens reaper, though it might still be worth voting on

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captainluffy: i think itd make it a lot less exciting, at the very least

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shapechange: i'm really not sure that's true, seeing as reaper isn't really used in conjunction with R roles anyway right now, but since removing the R power does decrease complexity it would make it feasible to add another power, probably for P roles

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shapechange: the problem with this is that P roles are far more common than R/A roles, so it would have to be a very very weak power

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captainluffy: a trade for a P power would make the role more fun

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captainluffy: like you get to do something more often

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shapechange: you already get to do things every night